Ep. 40 Angela Shaw, People & Performance Director at Bakers Delight– The Honest CEO Show

The Honest CEO Show, Episode 40: Angela Shaw, People & Performance Director at Baker's Delight

Caroline Kennedy (00:01.196)
Welcome to the Honest CEO Show and I'm your host Caroline Kennedy and today we're deep diving into the world of people and culture and leadership with someone who knows how to build thriving teams, navigate tricky HR challenges and drive real business impact-- Angela Shaw. Now, Angela isn't a typical HR leader. With a background in law and commercial strategy, she's tackled everything from corporate policy frameworks to leadership development. She's led the HR function at ARB Corporation, which is a massive global powerhouse, turning over around 700 million in annual revenue. And now she's shaping the people's strategy at Baker's Delight. And Baker's Delight, as everyone knows, is a household name.

And Angela oversees the HR function, the training element compliance over all of the bakeries throughout the Australia. And they also have bakeries internationally as well. So Angela's got a fantastic job in terms of the impact she has. So we're going to chat today about how she balances the human side of leadership with the business in getting results, what's her take on keeping employees engaged, managing change and driving culture in a fast growing companies because she's led quite a few. And we're going to debunk some HR myths that might need some busting once and for all. So let's get into it. Angela, welcome to the show.

Angela Shaw (01:48.274)
Thanks Caroline, good to be part of this.

Caroline Kennedy (01:50.86)
Yeah, I'm excited. So you started your career in law and commercial management before transitioning into HR leadership. What sparked the shift? And let's go back to the earlier days anyway.

Angela Shaw (02:06.435)
I think I grew up always wanting to be a lawyer. And I think it was because, you know, as a kid, I was good with words and a smart kid, and it was sort of a natural pathway. And I didn't regret it. It was a lot of fun. I learnt a lot of things, but I did find out I wasn't really cut out for private practice. I was always much more of a problem solver, which suited the in-house environment a lot better. So I spent about 15 years working in-house and I was at ARB Corporation having established the in-house legal function and I supported, I guess, a developing HR function at the time in terms of policy and people issues. And I mean, I really enjoyed the business. And there was a time when I was on an interview panel recruiting for a new HR manager. And I was thinking, you know, these people know HR, but I know the business. And I thought, I would really like to give this a go. And the business was generous enough to do that, to let me take over the HR function, knowing what I knew about the business and its culture and where it wanted to go and start developing that function further.

So that was my journey and I do have a bit of a joke which is, it's like getting married and having children. It's better that you don't know what you're doing before you get into it. Just get into it and work it out.

Caroline Kennedy (03:35.032)
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, yeah. And what do you think in those early days then when you were transitioning and as you said, you knew the business and you know a lot about strategy anyway, but what do you think were the biggest challenges in transitioning and what did you want to achieve as well?

Angela Shaw (03:58.734)
So I think personally, one of the biggest challenges going from a professional services background to a general management background was a mindset issue for me, that I really was used to people relying on my expertise and taking it for granted that I knew what I was doing. And there was a much bigger influencing piece when I moved into HR and formulating broader strategies that weren't based on, I guess, legal advice, which is what I've been used to. So that was a big challenge for me, understanding how that worked and to really step up and learn to influence effectively outside of my domain of expertise. So that was a big learning curve. And what did I want to achieve? I wanted to achieve a productive environment for both employees and the business. And I could see a lot of opportunities there to improve processes. But above and beyond that, mean, what really fires me up is seeing people grow and develop. And to create those structured opportunities for that to happen was, I think, really ultimately what drove me into the transition and drove my work there at ARB.

Caroline Kennedy (05:20.578)
Yeah. Yeah. And what would you say the biggest challenges you faced, particularly during those early days of developing the impact, but also the implementation element of it too.

Angela Shaw (05:35.399)
Yeah, well it was through COVID, which was the whole world of it. In some ways, I mean, there's always a silver lining to a cloud. And in some ways that played to my strengths in a lot of ways, you know, literally daily regulations were changing, particularly in Victoria where our factory was I had the opportunity to interpret and apply. So it sort of played to my strengths in both fields. But the challenges, I mean, it is influencing change across a big blue collar and white collar workforce. I think honestly, the biggest changes were in leadership. It was managing myself in the executive leadership group and making sure I'd taken people on the journey.

I think that was really the biggest challenge and I did learn a lot about how to do that, how to understand people's objections and work with them. I think in my work with you, Caroline, we talked a lot about influencing and what that means and how you make that happen. And I really, I think that was really the main area that I grew in, which helped me be effective in terms of providing better tools to our people, communicating more effectively and getting systems and processes in place to support that platform for people's development.

Caroline Kennedy (07:10.518)
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important to recognise that particularly in leadership, right, influencing is such a critical skill. And it's not necessarily an easy skill to master. It sounds easy, but it's not. And we would have talked about that too in the earlier days where, and I say this to anyone who undertakes the mastery of influence, it's messy at the beginning. It's difficult at the beginning, but rest assured it won't always be that way. And then you get to a point where you look back and then you think, wow, look how far I've come. Look what I'm capable of now.

Angela Shaw (07:45.988)
Yeah, it is. very natural now and it's a lot easier to read the room and read where people are at and know how to pitch my message. And I think a lot of the work that I do now with the leaders that I lead is supporting them on that journey to say, yes, you've got the right idea, but that really doesn't help unless you can persuade people. And I really enjoy that too because it's when the blinkers come off and people see what they can do and it's exciting for me and liberating for them and it achieves the results for the business.

Caroline Kennedy (08:28.152)
Yeah, absolutely. And it really empowers people. And I think that's the critical element of influencing. And just to give context to listeners, so influencing is very much about when you change your approach to an outcome that you're looking for and you think about human behavior. And so what that means is generally as leaders, we show up one way, which I call one dimensional, particularly at our early stage career. And we attempt to then influence individuals, but we're bringing one style of leadership to that conversation or to that audience and it isn't as effective. And then when we start to think about the other individual, their character type, their experiences, their needs, what motivates them, then we're able to overlay that with what is the outcome that we're looking for and what's the best approach to getting buy in from this individual so that they are engaged as you said, but also empowered to, to take action and to deliver. it's so powerful to watch individuals actually become empowered and to embrace that and to run with it. And then everybody elevates and it's how you create those high performing teams too. Yeah.

Angela Shaw (09:53.86)
Yeah, very much so. I do remember early on there was an example where I felt like the influencing was almost manipulation. It almost seemed so easy with one individual when I suddenly thought about it from their perspective. And the breakthrough was quite simple in that case. And then I was able to restore a relationship with a peer on the executive that had been a bit fractured because I was coming at it with my mindset, he was coming at it with his and I think your analogy Caroline was that we would like the striking cobras and once I saw how I was triggering him I was able to stop that and just meet him where he was at and we were able to actually work together quite collaboratively very quickly. It wasn't actually a big deal to restore that relationship.

Caroline Kennedy (10:47.33)
Yeah, yeah. And I just want to circle back to something Angela said about it, the manipulation element. If there's a very stark difference between for our listeners, manipulation and influence. And the difference is your genuine intent. Your intention is to for the greater good, not for self service and, and that's what the difference is in terms of how you do it. It lands differently as well. Right. When, when you're all about self and self-service that is about manipulation but influence's very much around greater good and empowering other individuals and getting alignment and seeking the best interest of the business and the people and, and creating that positive environment for people. Yeah.

Angela Shaw (11:39.843)
Yeah, it's very true. And I guess where I'm really exploring my ability to influence now is making sure in every forum I find myself in the business, I using that insight that I've gained that I'm thinking, you know, what is it for this person? If they're withdrawn in a meeting, what's going on for them? If they're holding back, can I draw them out? You know, what's the dynamic here that's inhibiting what we need? So I'm really enjoying exploring that now and, you know, strengthening the influencing muscle in other forums, not just with the people that I lead, but more broadly within my peer group and even other groups that I interact with now.

Caroline Kennedy (12:31.618)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a skill that's not just applicable to who you lead. It's, it's a skill you can use on a 360 perspective, even with your peers and also individuals that are senior or externally or family members. It's a skill that becomes organic and you just become that then as a result. And it's a way of operating too. And it's extremely powerful. And what you see is that the most effective leaders have that skill, whether they be CEOs, executives, and you can see it in action if you're looking for it and if you're conscious of it, but it's one of those things. You don't know what you don't know. So a lot of the time people don't recognise what that skill is. They just know it's a, it's a special something that an individual has, but they don't, it's hard for them to articulate exactly what that is.

Angela Shaw (13:26.677)
It is and I think a really nice byproduct of it is authenticity. I think when you're tuning into the wavelength of other people and trying to get behind what's bothering them, what's driving them, what's holding them back, you're thinking about them, you're not thinking about yourself. There's a genuine interest and curiosity and I think a natural authenticity in your leadership style emerges which creates a virtuous cycle because people in turn respond to that. And I certainly remember earlier in my career, know, reading a lot about being an authentic leader and I thought, what does that mean? How does that happen? It sort of happens naturally when you take on the perspective of other people rather than just saying, I've got a position and it must happen.

Caroline Kennedy (14:16.684)
Yeah, yeah, very much so. And I also think it comes with this sense of inner self assurance as well. That's one of the critical foundations because we're not necessarily always trying to seek validation from other people or to be perfectionists. We're okay being human. And I think that for me is also really critical because we don't know everything. And we do know a lot though, but we don't know everything. No human does. And it's okay not to know everything and it's okay not to be perfect and it's okay to make mistakes. And when you really get a sense of that for yourself, you then create environments for people where it's safe for them to be themselves. And I think that's really important too.

Angela Shaw (15:10.755)
That is true. That is true. I've actually pondered that recently. We're going through reshaping some teams here at Baker's Delight and there's been some pushback and some people have struggled at different points and they've been really honest with me, really honest and I've thought, really, would they tell my peers this? And then I've thought, well, they probably wouldn't, but that's a good thing that they would tell me that and just let me know exactly how they're feeling and then I can go on the journey walking it through with them.

Caroline Kennedy (15:41.462)
Yeah, but you can help them resolve it. And that's such a powerful, I suppose, leadership position to be in as well, because people are trusting you and then you can help resolve any hesitations that they might have. But if you can't resolve those hesitations, then you're coming up against constraints that you don't even know exists. And then how can you make progress when that's occurring? It's going to be a lot more challenging.

Angela Shaw (16:12.801)
No, that's very true. I think, I guess you never stop learning and there's a lot in being able to reflect as you go through it, to admit your mistakes and find a way forward. And it's those honest conversations where you find that way forward, where actually, you know, a mistake can actually lead to a better outcome because you've created a greater depth in the relationship through working through that conflict or misunderstanding.

Caroline Kennedy (16:43.48)
Yep. And then people are not trying to hide things either, which if people are trying to hide because they're fearful and they're trying to hide mistakes or problems, then how can you resolve them and turn them into opportunities too? Yeah.

Angela Shaw (16:58.307)
Yeah, it's very true. Another thing I noticed in myself, and again, this is something through our coaching process, you've encouraged me, you know, in the moment to notice what's going on, what's my response to, you know, and I found myself at times when people have challenged me and said, well, you know, did you get this right? I don't like this. And I'm like, I could tell you a thing or two, but, know, then I calm that right down and say, hang on, where are they at?

Is this about my need to be a hero or prove that I can do things or is this about working with this person to get the right result? Then it's again, another really liberating skill to have as a leader to be able to recognise what's going on in the moment and manage it effectively.

Caroline Kennedy (17:46.85)
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's one of the most critical skills. There are many of them, but that if you can't manage self in the moment and regulate in the moment, then again, you've got that two cobras going at each other. And then everybody loses. Yeah. And then being able to, yeah, to influence to that outcome.

Now also HR often has to make tough calls. What's one of the most difficult people related challenges you've had to navigate? And what did you learn from it? You don't need to give details because I know for confidentiality reasons, but yeah.

Angela Shaw (18:30.081)
Do you know, one of the biggest challenges has been because I haven't come through a conventional HR career pathway. I think people are surprised by my approach. I mean, I'm a practical person and a problem solver. I guess I've always seen myself like that, regardless of how I've applied my skills. But it's been approach. It's been approach. People have certain stereotypes about HR being the, I guess, the disciplinarian or the enforcer of process. And I take the approach that the process must serve the business outcomes. And part of that's been challenging for my colleagues in HR who have come from a different approach. Whereas, you know, we obviously comply with the law and we comply with process, but we don't let process rule us. We need to get the right outcomes for the people. And this means, you know, we're a service provider and not a disciplinarian. it's been managing that cultural shift in the HR service that I want to deliver. And that's, it's ongoing, because I mean often you know it's easier in some ways to revert to a set of rules or revert to a process. It's actually a lot harder to engage with a person who's struggling or hurting or doing the wrong thing and holding them accountable. That's probably my single biggest challenge is working with the business to say what does accountability look like in this business and how do we hold that person accountable in an appropriate and humane way, but that supports the outcome that the business needs.

Caroline Kennedy (20:27.384)
Yeah. And I think it's also clarity is kind, right? And people don't necessarily realise that. And therefore accountability for me is having those tough conversations that say, this is what we're clear on. These perhaps are the, the, the opportunities that I see for development with you. And whether it be behavioral, whether it be skill related, whatever it might be. And interestingly, generally it's behavioural most of the time. Yeah. And a lot of people are not cognizant or aware of their behavioral patterns. And therefore if you're able to then sit with them, talk them through it, help guide them through to awareness or consciousness and then hold them accountable for that improvement, but work with them on what that improvement might look like for them. The majority of individuals will come on the journey. Not everybody will come on the journey. And the people that don't come on the journey, well, I think that's on them because they're responsible for themselves. All we can do is try and guide that. And I really do think so many leaders shy away from difficult conversations, particularly around accountability. it's actually also too for me, accountability is helping individuals become the best version of themselves. As long as it's done in the right manner. And I think that's the critical thing. Accountability is not a stick. It's not that we beat somebody, but we give clarity and clarity is kindness, I think. Otherwise people have no idea.

Angela Shaw (22:29.219)
It's very true. I it is, I sort of wonder now why I struggled so much in the early years of leadership with having those conversations, because now they're the most enriching part of what I do in that when you can open up and talk to someone about those opportunities and what you're seeing and where it could go. I mean, there's emotions that come out and you've got to be able to ride the emotions with the person. But when you get to that point of real connection to say we're in this together and there's an opportunity you can take hold of here, they're most rewarding parts of my work. it just took a bit of practice. And I actually find now it's amazing the things I can say to people and it's taken in the right way and it leads to a connection, it leads to trust. Again, not always, but overall, I'm more confident going into those conversations that it'll end well, regardless.

Caroline Kennedy (23:47.404)
Yeah. And I've always thought about that too, from my perspective as a leader is I'm giving people what they need, not what they want. And I felt very much responsible for that and helping people to become that next level version of themselves. Even when I was, you know, CEO or even in my coaching as well, because I take that responsibility very seriously. But when you see people develop, it's so rewarding and fulfilling which is what you've just described, right? And you see them step into it and the majority of people will, like I said before, some won't, but that's for them anyway. All we can do is attempt to support them and help them to level up.

Angela Shaw (24:32.919)
Yeah, and we don't have to do all the work. I mean, again, another thing I learned in our time together, Caroline, was you made me come up with the answers, you know, like you could see it, but I couldn't. And it wouldn't have helped for you to tell me. I needed to work it out. You know, what was going on? What was the dynamic? What was I missing? What was going on for me? I'm the only one who can answer that question. And I'm sure you were sitting there knowing it.

But we don't help if we just tell people all the time. We've got to say, this is what I'm seeing, what's happening for you, how are you going to resolve this? Because ultimately we can't solve another person's problems or change things for them. They've got to own that need for change, otherwise it will just never happen.

Caroline Kennedy (25:19.788)
Yeah, and also too with what Angela's just said for context to the listeners, that's actually the neuroscience around how the brain functions. And so I always tell the story about the computers. So I'll share that Angela with the listeners. So if Angela went and bought a computer and I went and bought a computer at the same time, and 12 months later, mine broke down and I went to Angela and I said, can I use your computer? I just need to find a file.

What would actually happen is Angela will have filed those files in the way that she likes to file files. Even if we have a system, it still would be a little bit different to me. And I would then have to try and find what I was looking for. And it would be quite challenging. And the brain is exactly the same way. So when we tell somebody something, what actually happens is, they go into their brain and they have little folders and they try and find that piece of information in the folder. And it can be quite difficult because they might not have anywhere where that's filed. And what happens as a result of that, that doesn't stimulate their neurons and therefore it doesn't land. When we help by asking questions, what that does is, it stimulates those neurons and individuals need to go in and find the answers in their files themselves. And then when they do it anchors and it's really interesting and I'm sure you do this now Angela as well is that even though through our coaching I would have known what was required. My role was to guide you to that outcome and to that conclusion yourself.

And therefore it's going to anchor for you and the skill will actually develop as opposed to me telling you, which then is going to slow down that process. and, or not even occur the development of the skill. And it's fantastic to see that you apply that now, which is ultimately what I want to achieve when I work with individuals, because I want to see them then, applying it with other people and then. Generally, people will pick up things through observation, particularly skill development. And when they observe you doing that, they start to take that approach as well. And therefore, it has a broader impact than just one individual, which is very powerful.

Angela (27:54.232)
No, I've certainly found that. It's been a great tool, but it also takes the pressure off. Like, I don't have to have the answers. The person needs to find the answers.

Caroline Kennedy (28:04.46)
Yeah. And that's also too about helping people. You don't need to be the genius. You can create geniuses, right? And as leaders, that's our responsibility. And I talk about this a lot because a lot of leaders want to be the genius. They want to have all the solutions. They feel responsible for having all the solutions, but actually helping other people to critically think and helping lift their genius again is helps that tide rise.

Angela Shaw (28:34.123)
It does. I mean one of the things I love saying to my team is you're you're making me look good. You're just making me look so good and and I love it. I love it when they they're making me look good because they've I've released them to do to shine basically and it's it's a great source of delight.

Caroline Kennedy (28:51.564)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Now business leaders can sometimes see HR as a compliance function, as we've talked about a little bit, rather than a growth driver. How do you shift that mindset and prove the impact of great, a great HR strategy? And I think it's really important for our listeners to understand that too.

Angela Shaw (29:15.543)
How do we prove it? Well, I think the key is in raising leadership capability. When leaders are more skilled to develop their own people, again, the tide rises. And how do we demonstrate that? I guess it's, I mean, there are the conventional HR metrics of employee turnover, employee surveys.

It's actually a really good question. How should we measure that Caroline?

Caroline Kennedy (29:48.27)
Well, my thought on this, and I know you know this anyway, is because we've had many conversations about it and Angela is very strategic and very switched on. It's really about being clear on the outcomes that we're looking for each role to deliver and what they contribute to the greater strategy, right? And being able to see whether or not there's progress towards that.

And you and I have talked a lot about, and I know that you guys do this so well at Baker's Delight, but where do we want to be? What does that look like? And how do we break that into bite-sized pieces for each department, for each role, et cetera, and then being able to measure success? And even though you've talked about HR, the standard metrics, it's beyond that, right? How are we measuring what shifts the needle and what does that look like? And everything can be measured and what gets measured improves too. Yeah. And, and you, I think from a strategic lens, very. Yeah. That's your strength.

Angela Shaw (31:09.027)
I guess, again I think I've always tried to look at it through a business lens. What's the outcome we're trying to achieve here and at Baker's Delight we're very focused on our franchisee success. It's this is not a self perpetuating head office. It's we're only here to serve our franchisees and achieve better outcomes for them. we need you know, to increase revenue, increase profit for our franchisees and to expand the network. So if the activities we're engaging in as a support function don't relate back to those objectives, then they're not activities we should be doing. Yeah, so we're very much focused on, you know, what's the impact for franchisees here.

Caroline Kennedy (31:55.0)
Yep. And what I want to say to listeners is that, I've been exposed to various franchise models and one of the stand out approaches from Baker's Delight is that they genuinely have, at the customer, both the consumer, so the people who buy the bread and the franchisees at the heart of everything that they do to the point of, they would let to a certain degree, they would, they're not focused on solely profitability in terms of them being profitable. It's about the franchisees and ensuring that they are commercially viable and they will do whatever it takes to ensure that that, that those franchisees are successful. And at the detriment to the the actual organisation itself. Honestly, I've seen without, you know, going into any detail about that, you would make decisions that serve them over you.

Angela Shaw (33:01.463)
That's very true. And going back to your point earlier, mean, that clarity of vision at Baker's Delight makes our planning very easy in a lot of respects. Because if it comes back to revenue and profitability for our franchisees, we'll do it and we'll prioritise it. And if it doesn't, we've got a question why we're doing it.

Caroline Kennedy (33:23.308)
Yeah, yeah. And I also think the culture there is another thing I want to talk about is the culture is very, we're in this together, and we support each other and, and also do we have tough conversations? So would you like to add anything to that? Because I think culture is really important.

Angela Shaw (33:47.317)
It is a really warm, welcoming place at Baker's Delight. Again, I think that unifying purpose really helps in that regard. And again, that unifying purpose means we can have those accountability discussions because if you're not working towards this shared objective, then things have to change. I think we're very overt about the culture. We're very proud of the culture, but we're also not afraid to challenge if we feel it's not right. mean, we're very values-driven. It's quite a well, I mean, even though privately owned, very well developed organisation in terms of culture and values.

Caroline Kennedy (34:36.846)
Yeah. Okay. So now if you were to go back to your younger self, what's one piece of career advice you would give her?

Angela (34:51.423)
I would remind, would tell her, it's not about you. Why people are doing things is about them. So tune into that. That's how you will make a difference. Don't take it personally. People do what they do because of their own motivations. And I think that's once I really understood that, that was liberating.

Caroline Kennedy (35:14.156)
Yeah, it is very liberating and it's, it's, brings peace. Doesn't it? Yeah.

Angela Shaw (35:18.851)
It does. I remember hearing, you know, in your 20s you worry about what people think about you. In your 30s, you don't care what people think about you. And in your 40s, you realise they were never thinking about you at all. It's very true. If only we could have learned that earlier.

Caroline Kennedy (35:30.222)
Yeah, is very true. I know. Now there's so much noise around AI and automation, et cetera. Do you think technology will ever replace the human element in people leadership?

Angela Shaw (35:51.475)
No, no, I don't. I mean, that point where you make a connection with a human being and you're on the same wavelength and you're doing something well together. No, I think AI will support us on the journey. AI will take away some noise and make tasks easier. But that human to human connection, which is where the magic happens, stays with humans.

Caroline Kennedy (36:20.844)
Yeah, I agree with that too. At the moment, I'm doing a lot of work around AI in leadership, particularly, and it carrying the cognitive load for individuals. And that's where I see the benefit, particularly for leaders in strategy and challenging their thinking on strategy. So leaders will always be the thought leader and the, you know, creating the strategy, but how does then AI support, you being that thought partner to challenge your thinking as well. And a lot of individuals out there are talking about all of the tech elements to it, like the tools you can use. But actually, I think the critical thing for particularly executives and boards is how can you leverage AI to be that, to carry the cognitive load and to be that thought partner, not thought leader.

Angela Shaw (37:19.426)
Yes. Yeah, and we should embrace that. And it'll mean there's no way to hide then either. You know, can't hide in your busy work because it's taken care of.

Caroline Kennedy (37:34.188)
Yeah, yeah. And so for you, as we wrap up, what's the legacy you hope to leave in a workplace?

Angela Shaw (37:45.347)
She made a difference. She made pathways clear for us to grow and learn and I have more skills as a result of the work she did.

Caroline Kennedy (37:59.672)
I love that. That's about everybody else and the impact that you have. That's very significant. And I would challenge our listeners to think about their legacy and how they can have a greater impact on others and what that might look like for them too. And one final question, Angela, what's it like working with me?

Angela Shaw (38:29.635)
I delay. Where to start? It's terrific working with you Caroline. You challenged me. You made me think of things that I really hadn't. And more than that, and I think it's borne out in this conversation, you've taught me skills and ways of thinking that are now embedded in my approach and that I now use in my work with other people. So certainly terrific changes that have made me a much better leader and are now part of my modus operandi.

Caroline Kennedy (39:04.194)
Yeah, yeah. Well, you did all the work, so you wouldn't have leveled up without doing the actual work. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Angela. This has been an incredible conversation. Your insights into HR strategy, leadership and culture have been so valuable. And to our listeners, if today's conversation has inspired you, make sure you subscribe to the Honest CEO Show for more incredible interviews with lots of leaders. So thank you so much Angela. I have really enjoyed it and I appreciate your time.

Angela (39:43.565)
Thanks Caroline, really I've had fun, it's great to chat.