Ep 8. Catriona Pollard: How To Go From Unknown To Expert in Your Field

The Honest CEO Show, Episode 9 Catrional Pollard: How to Get From Unknown to Expert in your Field

Caroline Kennedy (00:17)
Good morning and my guest today is Catriona Pollard, founder and director of CP Communications, one of Australia's most respective and innovative PR and social media agencies. She is also the author of From Unknown to Expert, a step-by-step process for growing your profile and expanding your influence by becoming a recognised expert in your field using public relations and social media.

In her book, she shares her story about how she moved from being relatively unknown to a recognised expert. She also shares trade secrets and techniques that can help to build reputation, increase sales and enable new career opportunities. Catriona founded CP Communications in 2001 and has built it into one of Australia's leading PR and social media agencies, recognised as an industry influencer.

Catriona is an international speaker and trainer, author and popular media commentator. She has over 20 years experience in developing public relations and social media strategies that engage both the consumer and businesses. In 2015, Catriona was named one of the top 50 most influential women entrepreneurs in Australia as part of the Inspiring Rare Birds project. Catriona created the popular blog

Public Relations Sydney that has been listed as the top two business blogs in Australia. She is also listed as one of the top 100 PR people worldwide to follow on Twitter. Catriona presented an Inspiration and Motivation talk at TEDx on the topic of being open to yes. She encouraged people to move from the shadows into the spotlight, to redefine the spotlight so it means that something to everybody and to understand we all deserve to be there and share our voice with the world. Catriona, the only word that comes to mind is wow, congratulations on all your achievements to date.

Catriona Pollard (02:19)
It's so funny, I'm sitting here listening to that going, oh dear. So we're hearing all of that. It's like, yes, I do binge on Netflix from time to time as well.

Caroline Kennedy (02:29)
Doesn't sound like it. You don't know how you'd have time for that. And tell us about CP Communications and where it all began.

Catriona Pollard (02:38)
You know, really, it began in a management meeting in my last and final job. When I, you know, I found myself actually drawing what I would, what I, my business card would be like if I owned my own business, you know, and I really, and I realised that I just wasn't, it just wasn't working for me in, in, a corporate environment anymore. I actually realised that it never did. I kind of was brought up to have a career and be the woman with the corner office kind of thing.

I realised I never really fitted in. And it was me, it wasn't the corporations or the companies. So I just one day, and I think that it was in my subconscious for a long time and it moved forward and consciously went, it really felt like I woke up one day and went, it's not doing this anymore. It's just not what I want to do. I'm not happy in this work environment.

So I quit. Big move. don't know whether I would do that now. can't really believe that I did do that. Thought that was a little bit crazy actually. They didn't particularly support the move because, you know, Wiley, a really well-paid job to have nothing. And I hadn't planned it because it was kind of like a spur of the moment thing. I didn't have clients, didn't have backing, I didn't even have a computer. Because it was way back then when people didn't have computers at home, you know, and it was dial up internet and it just is very, very different to what it is like now where you can start a business and have a website up within a day. It was such a vastly different entrepreneurial. We used the word entrepreneurial back then.

I had a lot of fear around it as well. Had this massive fear of failure where I felt like for the, you know, almost for the first year I didn't even want to say that it was a business. I wanted to say I was consulting just in case it failed. It was a massive leap of faith but it was really it started there because I really needed a change and you know it was such such a great decision it was one of probably the best decisions I've ever made and not to say that it hasn't hard you know it's not easy building a business but you know it's think it was.

Caroline Kennedy (05:12)
It's rewarding. Especially if you get it right.

Catriona Pollard (05:14)
It's what it is, it's your own challenges. incorporate your, you don't really often you don't have control over your destiny. Whereas at least in business, you do at least have that control to a certain extent. It's just, it's just a different environment and some people it doesn't suit other people. And I mean, you know, it may, for me, it may change in the future. Who knows? I don't know. But yeah, that's where it started.

Caroline Kennedy (05:40)
Great story. Now I really connect with your story because it has similarities to my own, especially the fact that you're, you know, a true introvert, whoever you've taught yourself to be a mix of both introvert and extrovert in your behaviour. And I truly believe that entrepreneurs, especially those introverts among us, you know, must adapt in the changing social landscape.

So tell us your thoughts, tips and personal experiences with embracing opportunity regardless of fear, which is what you've just described now with starting the business anyway.

Catriona Pollard (06:14)
Yeah, you know, I think that we live in an extroverted world. I know that we live in an extroverted world. Those people, and that's what I talked about in my TEDx talk, those people that are extroverted get rewarded. You know, look at the sort of the Kim Kardashian's other world. We want to aspire to being that. Really the extroverted is the people who are in the spotlight all the time, create the spotlight. They tend to get those moments. business, whether it's corporate or whether it's in small business. The people who are the loudest, the people who are prepared to stand up on stage, the people who are prepared to express themselves tend to get more opportunities and tend to get more recognised.

I see that in introvert. Like all my life I've been an introvert.

As a child, I actually was ashamed of being so shy and so introverted. Because I felt, I was in a, my parents are introverted, but my sister isn't, she's extroverted and you know, I could really see the difference of how people treated us differently and so on. And the opportunities she got compared to me and so on. I think that it really did impact my career. You know, even from the perspective of, you know, I didn't want to be a school captain because I didn't want to get up on stage. And I didn't put myself forward for presentations and so on during my career. So people didn't, you know, see me. So I think that that really impacted me.

And it got with my business where  it was a maturity thing as well. I really felt that I started hearing myself saying no a lot. No to opportunities, no to media, no to speaking opportunities. I really decided, or had this recognition that I was holding myself back and I was denied; denying my voice and deny the sharing of my experience and knowledge. you know, by, by that point, you know, I've got, yeah. And kind of, who am I to actually say no to that?

So I really, I went through a lot of. of, you know, I went and got coaching, speaking, speaking coaching knowledge to share.

I did a lot of thinking around, well, you know, what is my personal friend? What am I an expert in? And I really, really put myself in situations where way out of my comfort zone because I really felt that it was time for me to grow and to expand because I think that as extroverts, it's not necessarily being louder. It's about being bolder. It's about really finding your own personal voice and in ways that actually you feel comfortable sharing it.

But I do think that we do need to grow and expand and push ourselves outside our comfort zone at times because that's where growth comes from. Living in an extroverted world, introverts do need to learn extroverted qualities and apply those to situations.

Caroline Kennedy (09:32)
Yeah, and I would agree with you completely and it's something that I've had to do throughout my career and more so, and just listening to your story, it has so many correlations with my own because in my earlier career, you know, I talk about how I used to sit at the table with a lot of executives and I haven't spent a lot of time in male dominated industries and I wouldn't speak up because I was kind of intimidated and I didn't want to say the wrong thing. And then I realised that I have a lot to say and listening to them, knowing that I could really contribute to that. And then I decided that I was the only one holding myself back. regardless of the fear that I just needed to take a seat at that table and own it.

But even with public speaking as a child, I didn't want to even read a book in school out loud. It was terrifying. I certainly didn't do any public speaking, but now that I get asked to do it, even though it terrifies me and not so much now, but when I first started doing it to the point where I would just shake and I'm sure you can relate to that. But the more you do it, the easier it gets. And you've just got to put yourself out there and say, well, this is my destiny. I, you know, I'm the master of my own destiny and nobody else is going to do it for me. So I better just step through that uncomfortable, feeling that I have and just do it anyway, regardless.

Catriona Pollard (11:07)
And I think they're what it is, to is I think it's really important that we do it in elk and in our own pac because not everyone is going to feel comfortable doing public speaking. I certainly think that it's something that people should challenge themselves to do, but there's other ways of sharing your voice and it might be writing articles, might be doing, you know, starting a blog, it might be through Facebook or through Twitter, but it's still about sharing your opinions and your expertise with the people that matter to you, to your personal brand or to your career or to your business brand.

And I think that, and this word is just such an overused word, it's doing it in your own authentic way. But I think that that's exactly what you described then. You do have to do that personal reflection. Well, I don't know. What is it? Who I want to be in this world? Who do want to share? Am I actually making decisions that are holding myself back because of fear? And if that's the case, you need to do something about that.

Caroline Kennedy (12:14)
Yeah. Now you just mentioned personal brand and you've certainly created a very strong personal brand and tell us why you decided to go down the path of building your brand and the benefits that you've seen from it.

Catriona Pollard (12:29)
Developing my personal brand started around that same time as me realising that I needed to step into the spotlight, needed to, you know, part of that was stepping on stage as well as doing media and so on. Small business or not, relatively on I've known a little bit in my industry, was sort of, in the business.

I'm really lucky to have clients come to me and so on. But if I wanted to grow my business, needed to have a brand, instantly recognisable brand that related to me as an individual, not just my business. Because as a small business owner, I am the business. As an entrepreneur, I am the business.

So, it's that really we have a personal brand whether we know it or not. People describe you when you're not around. People recommend you in ways that you, if you're not doing any work around your personal brand, you don't have control of how they recommend you or how they speak about you and your work. So I needed to take control of that. I needed to actively build that. And so what I did was decide what I wanted to be known as if you're nodding.

And it was pretty easy because, you know, I'm an expert in public relations and social media. The challenge was for me, a lot of women do struggle with this a little bit, is that I felt like I couldn't describe myself as an expert.

There's a whole bunch of other amazing PR people in Australia. Am I saying that I'm better than them? That I know more stuff? What their first chapter in my book is this whole thing around, you know, why you want to become a recognised expert. What do you have to contribute and what blocks are you facing when you're doing that work? And I know that I certainly did that and I'm very comfortable saying I'm an expert now, but a few years ago I sort of, you know, process that with people too. It's like, you know, do you know your stuff? Yes, I know my stuff. You're an expert. But we do have to earn that role as an expert. can't just finish a degree and suddenly become an expert. You have to earn it.

Caroline Kennedy (14:38)
Yeah, and demonstrate your achievements and your results or whatever that may be.

Catriona Pollard (14:45)
The other thing too is not is absolutely demonstrating it, but I think that you have to be prepared to share your knowledge and your expertise. So it's not just saying, I'm an expert, but it's writing those, consistently writing those articles and getting published, consistently being prepared to get up on stage and sharing your opinions, consistently doing media where you're really actually sharing your opinions and your knowledge and you're putting yourself out there.

Which a lot of Australians are sometimes concerned about doing because they're going to get sort of knocked down. So you've to be prepared for that. It comes with the territory a little bit as well. You know, there are going to be a lot of people that you add value to when you really help because they'll use your insights within their business. And there are other people that they're going to be critical and that's just part of the process and I think that that's why you do need to do that work at the beginning.

You know what I'm confident in my expertise, in my knowledge and myself. That was what I did then is I can I consistently wrote articles, did media, did speaking.

My public relations and social media and I did not deviate from that at all. If I was asked to speak about business planning or marketing, I would say no because everything had to come back to public relations and social media so people instantly associated my name with that platform.

Caroline Kennedy (16:24)
Yeah, yeah, and I completely agree with that. Now you've just shared your tips for creating your personal brand, a few of them anyway. Do you have any more for our listeners?

Catriona Pollard (16:34)
When you think about who you, your personal brand, what you stand for, the value you offer. The step is thinking about the heart and soul of your brand. What you think, the essence of your communication and your voice. My one word that I always come back to is inspiration. I love to inspire.

I love to be around people who inspire me. have a room in my agency that's called the inspiration room where we go in and, you know, drink champagne, but also talk about inspiration. So, and we got to come back to that heart and soul that one word is, I'm to be inspiring people.

Am I inspiring people in this presentation or when I think about my brand, is this not, is not quite fitting. So I think that that's a really first important first place to start. What is your one thing that's a heart and soul of your brand instead of having to think about.

You know, the your, you know, some words, you know, can be like professional, humorous or hardworking or cost effective or, or, you know, those sorts of things. And obviously, as I said, thinking about your niche and you have to stick to it. And thinking all of the things that relate to that. Thinking about what your elevator statement is, how you describe yourself, what your personal branding statement is as well.

Caroline Kennedy (18:02)
Yeah. Now, what are your tips for leveraging your success with PR and social media?

Catriona Pollard (18:10)
You know, the first chip is to do it.

Caroline Kennedy (18:14)
Take the step.

Catriona Pollard (18:16)
So many people don't do it. I've been doing this my entire career. did it as a post-grad and that's what I've been doing. but I to start thinking about doing public relations for myself personally compared to doing it for my clients. It was really difficult because I had to think about how I was going to stories about myself and my expertise, it was actually quite difficult.

The first thing to really think about is, as I said before, consider this public relations technically, I think that that whole idea around what your personal brand statement is and going out and networking and really going into rooms full of strangers and actually talking about yourself and talking about, not that networking is talking about yourself, networking is having amazing conversations.

Having that confidence to be able to describe what you do, what value you offer, and why people should know you is a really great first start. The next is to actually really understand the techniques of public relations. Using the media is the last free thing that you can do now. Getting it at the top of Google search, you have to pay now. AdWords you have to pay. Facebook you have to pay.

So using the media is a really effective free way of building your personal brand. And that's coming up with story ideas and pitching them to journalists where your influences and your audience's publications that they read. There are so many opportunities now to write articles and get them published. That is, you know, a lot of the work that we do now is actually writing articles sort of content marketing, writing articles.

And you still have to pitch them to journalists, still have to get a journalist or an editor interested. But that means that you're sharing your knowledge and you're getting 600 words in an amazing publication. It's such an effective way of building your personal brand in them.

Caroline Kennedy (20:18)
Yep. And you talked before about getting the media interested in you. What are your tips around this area? Because I think this is the most daunting for a lot of people.

Catriona Pollard (20:29)
Yeah, so the most important thing is approach media. Relate to your area of expertise. For example, know, like I'm not going to pitch stories to, I don't know, Dog Weekly or something. Because it doesn't relate to your expertise. I hear this often, journalists wasn't interested, was like, okay, one, two, is that, does it relate to your area of expertise? Two, does your target audience read it?

Good Journalists? They want to write stories about small businesses, people in careers. They absolutely do. They need to every single day write interesting articles. if you're the person that has bothered to do the research on the publication, the research on the journalist, what kind of stories that they like to write about.

Caroline Kennedy (21:19)
It's their job.

Catriona Pollard (21:20)
That is the job. You know, hooks that they seem to be interested in, which you can tell by just reading the publications that they write, reading the articles that they write. And if you approach them in a way that is what we call a pitch, which is a story idea. So it's a hook. Why would you be interested? Why you would be interested in me? I can give you an opinion on XYZ. I'm an expert in this. This is why. What's going on? Is XYZ or my opinion on what's industry.

I'd love to speak to you. But if you send an email to a journalist and say, I'm fantastic, I know a whole bunch of stuff, my business just opened an office in Brisbane, interview me. You're wasting my time, delete. Like they're just gonna go.

Caroline Kennedy (22:18)
Yeah, because you're not adding any value, are you?

Catriona Pollard (22:21)
You're making your their job harder. What you have to do is basically package the whole story and deliver it to them and then you've got a much better chance of getting them interested and they would have stories. You just got to make sure that you do it in a way, pitch it in a way that they're going to immediately recognise as a story.

Caroline Kennedy (22:42)
Yeah. Yeah. Now I've written articles on how women in particular need to overcome self-promotion and we touched on that a little bit before, but this can be really hard. And I know I struggled with it, as I said, for many years. When I decided to overcome my fear of self-promotion, my world changed and the opportunities really flowed. What's your advice for anyone who's ready to overcome that fear and share their expertise?

You've clearly done that. what are your tips there?

Catriona Pollard (23:15)
You know, I think that I feel like women. That self-promotion just seems to be like a dirty phrase or a dirty word, you know? They don't want to be seen as the person that is, as I said, the loudest or the person that is begging themselves. And I completely understand that because I would hate that as well if people thought that I was you know big noting myself is is the genuineness of it is that if you're coming from a place where you genuinely want to share your knowledge.

But the difference, you want to, really, like for me when I was doing my first speaking opportunity, my first big speaking opportunity and I talk about this in my book. I literally walked across the stage and stood in the spotlight for the first time. Up until that point, I didn't want stand in the spotlight because I didn't want everybody to look at me. I didn't want to be the center of attention.

I never want to. That I had a massive realisation around self-promotion and around stepping in the spotlight that almost like I could let actually see my words float across the room into the hearts and the minds of the audience. And I realised it had nothing to do with me. It had to do with how my words and how my actions could change their lives, could change their businesses. Who was I not to do that?

And so this idea about self-promotion, if we think about it from an egotistical perspective, we think about ourselves. What I think is interesting is doing this because this is a lot of our roles are around how our actions influence other people, whether it's kids or families or careers or whatever. So we have an understanding of that concept. t=That and I think women are so amazing.

When we think about self-promotion, think what we can do for other people, how we can serve other people through stepping into the spotlight and through sharing our knowledge and expertise. And I think that that, you know, when I had that realisation, it changed everything for me. It was kind of like letting a genie out of the bottle.

It led to so many other magical, amazing, incredible moments, which I would never have if I hadn't have come to that realisation. And I think for women, that's sort something, some things that you probably need to do if you are concerned about, you know, stepping into the spotlight and being that techie, techie self-promotional.

Caroline Kennedy (25:52)
Yeah. And that's, they're very wise words because it isn't about us. It's about how we can contribute and what value we can add to other people. And about giving to other people first and foremost as well.

Catriona Pollard (26:07)
Yeah, absolutely. And do you know what? And let's not forget, it's also about us growing. Transforming and becoming people that we've never even imagined. I never even imagined myself to be in this position. you know it's a self-development opportunity as well.

Caroline Kennedy (26:26)
Yeah, that's very true. Now I understand that the, and I'm sure you can appreciate it, this, that men tend to dominate the speaking lineup at conferences and panels, which I know annoys you and it certainly annoys me. And I agree that women need to put themselves forward more and be more proactive. Now what are your tips for women who are interested in speaking and have a lot to contribute?

Catriona Pollard (26:53)
Yeah is that I think that what this topic we need to understand is that we can't sit here and just wait for things to happen. you want to go speak then go find opportunities to speak. Do you know what I Like that's really critical. put speaking, maybe not so much now, but certainly in the beginning, majority of my speaking opportunities I got because I put myself in a situation where I was asked to or I pitched to myself. It doesn't just happen, you gotta go make it happen.

I didn't feel confident so I went and got speaking coaching. And that made a massive difference for me. The next idea then. I've got this in my book and people can have look at it on my website. wrote a awesome speaker's profile which outlines my bio, speaking topics that I can speak about, where I've spoken. I've gotten a lot of from people testing my health.

You really should have a showbill. I've spoken in a million places and I still have it not a showbill. Package yourself up as a professional. you're starting out, still package yourself up as a professional. Let people make it really easy to understand what you speak about, what you're an expert in, whether you do training and speaking or whether you just do speaking. Make it really easy for people to choose you. Really quickly, which is what I did, is I researched where do I need to go speak? Who are the audiences that I need to speak at?

I spoke at places where I could practice, where I could get the confidence up. I specifically a time where I got up and I spoke with no notes for about an hour and I'm like, okay, I've made it. It was good time to get the confidence to be able to get to that.

Then, you and I remember to that place. Expect it to happen overnight either. So I think the thing is for women to try and change this stupid idiotic all-male panel that's everywhere drives me crazy is big thing. Package yourself up as a speaker, get the training and really go out there.

Caroline Kennedy (29:11)
Yeah, yeah. Good tips there. And Catriona's speaker's profile is fantastic. And I recommend that all of our listeners go and Google it because you'll be able to find it and have a look at what she's talking about. What are the biggest lessons you've learned in business, Catriona?

Catriona Pollard 29:30)
You know, I bet. that comes to mind for me is sticking with it. I think that there are times when we do need to let go of businesses or ideas or products and so on. But I think that it's really that determination to succeed. It's really not easy. There's times when it's been so challenging for me that I wondered why I'm doing it. And I think that sort of having that vision and being prepared to transform yourself is really important.

I think for me too is seeing where your challenges and your weaknesses and your strengths are. Whatkind of, you know, say for example, I did all of my bookkeeping for the first couple of years and then just went, you know what, I am a words person. am not a numbers person. My Sunday night doing this, but they want to spend the money. But when I decided to just hand it over and that made a massive difference. So I think that it's kind of thinking about, you know, where it's worth spending money on things that will actually free you up.

I think also too for me is, held myself back a bit in the beginning just from that fear of failure. It's kind of, you you've got to work through that, but the tip kind of is to have conversations with people around that. It was a friend that kind of went, you really am working too hard, you need to go get staff, you need to get an office. And I really resisted that, but it was somebody
externally that actually saw that I needed to do that. For me is networks. I made, you know, I found and I networked whether it was raining, hailing, I just networked. And so a lot of my friends and a lot of my contacts are from those people that I've made that when you're starting a business, it can be really isolating. And so really make that effort to go out and connect with this.

Caroline Kennedy (31:43)
And I know that you attribute networking as one of the fundamental tactics in growing your business and in building a successful business as well.

Catriona Pollard (31:53)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, the majority of clients, other people come to me through personal brand but also through my networks who, I have people who, you know, have met networking and two years later they're ready kind of thing. So it's, you know, isn't about going out and then in there, it's actually about building relationships.

Caroline Kennedy (32:22)
Yeah, absolutely. And if you just talk about yourself and don't actually listen and get to know people, then it's not going to work.

Catriona Pollard (32:32)
I realise networking works really well for me is I think introverts are much better networkers than extroverts. I find it challenging walking into a room full of strangers. We're so much better at listening than at talking and that's what builds relationships. So all those introverts out there, go start networking.

Caroline Kennedy (32:57)
And we feel uncomfortable talking about ourselves as well, somewhat. listening and asking questions about people is what we do.

Catriona Pollard (33:07)
Yeah, yeah, I hear myself sometimes in conversations going, I just don't even want to talk about myself. I'm just gonna, I'm so good at asking questions.

Caroline Kennedy (33:18)
And now I wanted to go back to the fear of failure part that you mentioned before. And I think it's really important that we have conversations around that because a lot of people fear failure. And I certainly do. I have done it all of my career. And when I'm taking new steps and new opportunities, new jobs, I really fear failure, but it's about bringing it along with you regardless and saying, okay, I acknowledge it. It's there.

But I'm going to still step forward and continue on regardless, because you can really, it can limit you if, you don't acknowledge it and we don't have conversations around it because so many people have a fear of failure and it's okay.

Catriona Pollard (34:05)
That that fear of failure is actually really helpful. It's not because it really does for us: transform and become you and to grow and to become the people that we want to be. I know that sometimes, say for example when I did my TEDx, it was really interesting because I just had done so much presentations until then and I had this, I knew what I wanted to speak about and I knew that I wanted it to be really personal but I had a massive crisis of confidence about a week before and this is insane fear of failure. what, do you have notes? I guess you can have notes. And also too, what I wanted to do was I just wanted to have the images. I didn't want to have any words. I just wanted to have these beautiful images behind me. It was even harder for myself.

So he's sort of a coach of mine. She kind of said, so what's the worst thing that could happen? What is the worst thing if you forget what you're going to say? It will not be good in the sense of you. It'll feel bad at the time, but you won't die. You won't lose your job. You won't lose friends. The worst thing that's going to happen is you don't do this.

It will, sure you like what is what if you don't then then that's worse than doing it but going in with it. So with that fear of failure, actually say, do it all. My god, I wanted to go back and all over again. was the most amazing.

Caroline Kennedy (35:49)
And you feel like you've accomplished something. I'm sure.

Catriona Pollard (35:53)
Accomplished this extraordinary thing that I never thought that I'd ever be able to do. And I got to tell a really personal, really brave, a very heartfelt story that I wanted to tell and I wanted to share with the world. And had I not embraced that fear of failure, had I not taken it with me on the stage, you know, I don't think that I would have done that.

The fear of failure is a healthy thing to have as long as you as dead, you acknowledge it, you take it with you. And you know that each thing that you do is going to be bigger and bigger and bigger or different, you know? And I think that that we do need to understand that.

We can't allow this fear. I feel like we live in a world of fear at the moment too, with everything that's going on in the world. That fear changes the way, if we allow it to impact, if we allow it in, it just sort of impacts on everything.

Caroline Kennedy (36:55)
It destroys everything, doesn't it?

Catriona Pollard (36:58)
Exactly. We have to see light in the field.

Caroline Kennedy (37:01)
Now finally, what does the future look like for you and CP Communications?

Catriona Pollard (37:08)
Yeah, I can not. So this year is my 50th in business.

Caroline Kennedy (37:11)
Congratulations.

Catriona Pollard (37:13)
Thank you and I've congratulated myself with a three week trip around East Africa, which I almost wanted to do, you know full. We've got to reward ourselves as entrepreneurs. Lot more speaking. A lot more training, there's a lot more products. So yeah. You do want to do some reassessing and see where things are at.

But it's amazingly. well and I have an amazing team and I'm you know it's great and I do a lot of things outside my business now which you know a lot of my art and so on which really does help as well.

Caroline Kennedy (37:51)
I love your art by the way.

Catriona Pollard (37:52)
Thank you so much. It's really, really helpful. You know, because that really helped me. I can do too much. My art really helped me understand, you know, stopping and sitting and creating was really important. So I want to do a lot more art in the future as well.

Caroline Kennedy (38:12)
Now for our listeners, you have a free book for them. Is that correct?

Catriona Pollard (38:19)
Yeah, so expert, you use this link, all you do is, so it's usually $20 for postage, but if you use it then it's just, you just pay for the postage. bit.ly/expertfree. To everyone is normally $20, but if you use the link, it's free.

Caroline Kennedy (38:41)
And I'll put that link on the podcast content as well so our listeners can just click on it and get your book which will really help them.

Catriona Pollard (38:48)
Great. So I wrote it in that really, you know, was a step-by-step guide, that it was all theory. It's like, this is, you'll able to build your personal brand.

Caroline Kennedy (39:02)
Well, one of the fundamental things that I've always believed is that if someone has been successful and you want to be successful like that individual, find out what they did and emulate it. Because at the end of the day, it's not really rocket science. So rather than running around scrambling, look at what they did and just do the same thing.

Catriona Pollard (39:26)
Yeah, absolutely. And do it in your own genuine way. Yeah, we all have something to share, you know, it is that you have to share in it how you can share it that works best for you and go out and do it. Absolutely.

Caroline Kennedy (39:45)
Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today, Catriona. It was wonderful chatting to you.

Catriona Pollard (39:51)
Thank you so much. You're welcome. I really enjoyed it.