Ep. 38 Drew Mansur, Co-Founder of TileCloud– The Honest CEO Show

The Honest CEO Show, Episode 38: Drew Mansur, Co-Founder of TileCloud

Caroline Kennedy (00:01.383)
Welcome to the Honest CEO Show. I'm your host, Caroline Kennedy. And today I'm joined by an entrepreneur who has transformed an industry that once felt outdated and uninspiring. It's Drew Mansur. He's the co-founder of Tile Cloud. Drew and his team set out to revolutionise the tile industry by making design-led high-quality tiles accessible through seamless online experiences. What started as a disruptive idea has kind of turned into one of Australia's most innovative home improvement brands. And today, Tile Cloud generates over $30 million in revenue annually and is rethinking traditional industries.

And today we're going to talk about how you can have extraordinary success in doing so. So Drew, welcome to the show.

Drew (01:01.742)
Thank you for having me.

Caroline Kennedy (01:04.315)
Looking forward to hearing all of your insights and sharing your journey with our listeners. So let's go back to the beginning. Can you take us back to your early career? What led you into the world of design and home renovation and did it even start there?

Drew (01:22.35)
I think you can probably go back even a little bit further than that. The origin story is probably one of, like a lot of young kids, everybody's got that little creative streak in them. We had some very fortunate-- mum was an artist, dad was a farmer. And so we had access to a lot of art supplies, but also lot of tools and machinery. And so our creative streak was kind of coming off the page and we're building sculptures and go-karts and like bringing our ideas to life in the real world as young kids. And so my two brothers and I were always building stuff. And then I think from there, I went down the path of construction management at university.

And while I was studying, that sort of like creativity and the kind of like excitement about bringing things to life in the real world was able to be kind of like brought together with the construction experience into renovations. And so my brother and I pulled our money together while we're still studying at uni and bought a little weatherboard cottage out in Mudgee in the town that we grew up in. And we would drive out on the weekends and renovate that. So super hands on in kind of like just wanting to build stuff and felt like the progression of building bigger things as you get a little bit older and the mix of the skills that was learning at university as well. And then I guess from there, it was kind of like, hey, that went pretty well. So we renovated that one and then sold it. And I was like, oh, it was a fun project and kind of like financially worked out well. I think we bought the place for 220 grand and sold it for 330 grand and we spent about just under 40 grand on the reno. And so we were like, hang on a minute, we've got like a glitch in the matrix here. We're just printing money. And as 19 year old kids, we thought, this is incredible. And you don't spend too much time calculating your kind of like the labor cost of doing the work. And if we were sort of like paying ourselves for the time invested in the project, probably the hourly rate was pretty ordinary. And you also kind of gloss over stamp duty and conveyancing fees and some of the other boring stuff. And you're just like, all I'm hearing is 100 grand, hello. And so anyway, wasn't quite like that, but you get a little excited. And so I think from that point on, was an interest in renovating and continuing to be creative through that.

Caroline Kennedy (04:19.802)
Yeah, yeah. And so then, Tile Cloud was born out of, from what I've done in my research, frustration with the traditional buying process. And what was the moment that kind of sparked that idea?

Drew (04:38.542)
There was a couple sort of like key things that came together. One of them was that frustration you spoke of being a renovator and kind of being somebody that's in the market and looking for the right products to bring kind of like the ideas to life just was like, it didn't feel like there was kind of like obvious options there to kind of like do what we wanted. And so I was like, all right, well, this is fairly painful.

But then the other kind of thing that was happening in parallel was it was right at the same time. I don't want to get the year wrong. I want to say 2010, 2011, 2012, somewhere right around there when Koala was kind of just kicking off here in Australia, Koala mattresses, maybe a little bit later than that. Anyway, the punchline was like of all the things you could buy online, buying a mattress online has to be like the most touch and feel purchase that you would need to go and touch and feel and lay on before you'd feel confident to buy it. And here we had all these signals from the market that actually no, the next generation of consumers is really interested in taking a chance on convenience essentially and saying, hey, I'm prepared to try this product. And obviously, Koala did a really great job with their free trials and that kind of thing to help de-risk it so that you don't feel like you bought it, you don't like it, you get stuck with it. But it was kind of just this mindset shift that, hey, maybe some of these things were previously considered something that had to be a touch and feel purchase in store, maybe that deserves to be challenged. And so I was like, all right, well, and actually, at the time, so I was in the construction industry, and my business partner, Mark and I had started a commercial tiling business. So we had we've been working on the builder side of the fence. And we were like, Okay, let's go out and do something on our own.

And starting a construction company felt like everybody's problems would just become our problem. As the builder, it's kind of like yeah, no problems out of bounds for you to sort of deal with. And so then we started looking at like, was there specific trades that are, you know, most interesting to us. And it was actually a bit of like an opportunistic kind of like corner of the construction industry, because everybody that we spoke to all of our friends that were in the industry and industry contacts, everybody hated their tiler. And  at that commercial level, they're just like, nobody had any conviction about like enjoying working with the tiles, they're always just really mediocre and reluctant to recommend. And I think the idea there for us was like, well, if nobody likes their tiler, and if we started a commercial tiling business, like it feels like at a minimum, we'd be able to quote for these guys, because there's not like a lot of loyalty in the current solution.

And that was kind of like the it felt like an easier kind of like on ramp. And that was that was pretty much the experience. So we were able to quote heaps of stuff. And then from there sort of started getting little opportunities and started to learn the industry, where the products come from and how to do install and all those things and kind of learnt the technical side of tiles.

Caroline Kennedy (08:09.242)
Yeah. And what I love about that is you looked at consumer buying patterns first and foremost, and they change over time. And innovators look, they see the change in the consumer buying pattern. They start to think, how can I overlay that with the problem that I see or a common theme that's out there and how can we do it better? And that's what I kind of hearing from what you've just said, you hit the nail on the head in getting those two things right. And also being an early adopter, I think too, of those changing buying patterns is quite significant because you can leverage off what you saw with Koala, but also then being able to be the first within an industry too, kind of sets the scene, doesn't it?

Drew (09:08.566)
It felt like it felt like at the time, at least in our minds anyway, that there was almost like an education piece that was like part of our like marketing messaging. It was like, like step one, hey, did you know this is now an option, you can buy tiles online. Step two, here's the reasons why this makes sense and why our products could help you, you know, create your dream bathroom.

And so, whereas obviously in an established market, you can skip step one, like they know it's an option and you can just kind of focus on like what makes you special. But certainly in the early days, it was like, this is a little bit novel. Like not a lot of people are even considering this as a potential way to kind of solve their problem. And I think that, you know, in those early days, ourselves, and then also the guys at ABI up on the Gold Coast were doing a similar thing in the tapware space.

And they really were helping to trailblaze the kind of like building a renovation products, having a much bigger digital presence around the same time.

Caroline Kennedy (10:17.872)
Yeah. What do you think or what were your biggest doubts or fears when launching the business?

Drew (10:28.088)
I think there was a healthy amount of ignorance to the challenges that were ahead of us, to where we probably weren't too focused on what could go wrong and more just like blindly chasing, you know, here's what we think good service looks and feels like and what do need to do to kind of like get that together? And so I don't remember it as a time of kind of like fear and apprehension. And I think my business partners, I mentioned Mark before, they came from the construction background but also my other co-founder, Floss, who came from a retail background. She was sort of bringing a different perspective. So we had worked together and were working with builders and and we really had never talked to a retail customer before and Floss came from a background in ceramics flatware and tableware with Mud Australia and she just come back from London, finished setting up their London store and was kind of at a little bit of a crossroads in her career. so when we were sort of like exploring this opportunity, it was like, hey, so we would especially need you to bring like to the table what a retail brand should look and feel like and how to talk to a retail customer, because that is not our experience. So I think I am an exceedingly positive and optimistic person when it comes to the entrepreneurial journey. And I think without speaking for this as partners, think they were the ones that were sort of like able to balance me out a little bit with some of those other sort of like, what about this? what about that?

Caroline Kennedy (12:11.408)
Yeah, yeah. And I like too that you've got the varied perspectives and that people do bring that varied perspective because it challenges your thinking and it helps then sort of define what that journey is going to be like. I can imagine too the early days are clearly much different too the operation now and the growth that you've gone through as you level up the business each time as well. Because I think we also personally grow as the life cycle of the business grows too.

Drew (12:49.026)
Yeah, big time. No, I know that I can confidently speak for all three of us and say that we've done a lot of growing over the journey. We're sort of eight years in now, I think. Yeah.

Caroline Kennedy (13:04.166)
Yeah, well you've achieved a lot in eight years. I mean eight years sounds like a long time, but it's not necessarily in business when you've been able to build it to the degree that you have and move through those life cycles stages of business quite quickly too. And what do you think when you look back where the biggest challenges that you faced in those early days?

Drew (13:28.512)
A couple stand out sort of at different phases in the journey. The very first one was a disconnect between kind of like how we just how the brand was showing up. And what I mean by that was the visual identity of the brand, the price point of the product, and then the look and feel of the products themselves was not aligned. And so we had kind of gone out and we had created what was just objectively a beautiful website with some guys that were very talented in that sort of graphic design space and we were like, this looks amazing. And we had, we were just started working with local wholesalers and so we had sort of like brought together sort of like a range of the products that we thought made sense for what our customers would like or what we thought our future customers would like.

And then, and then also obviously with the price point that we wanted to bring those to the market at being sort of like a sensible price that represented value, which is what we were looking for as renovators. It's like, "hey, show me cool stuff at a good price that I can afford from a brand that feels cool." We felt like that didn't exist, but we really missed the mark on the how elevated the brand was looking and feeling in the early days. There was a lot of white space on the website and it felt quite premium. And so as we had friends and family that were kind of like going through their renovating journeys, and maybe they used us or maybe they didn't, we were trying to get feedback from everybody as many people as possible, you know, what did you think? How can we be better? And immediate friends and family is like not the best place to get feedback. It's like the friends of friends and family are going to be a little bit like less filtered and they're going to have less of an emotional attachment to us on our journey.

So, when we started hearing from, from, from that layer of, um, contacts that it was like, Oh yeah, we looked at the range, beautiful, but we ended up going with so-and-so's and it was like, Oh yeah, interesting. And what product did you go with? And I was like, Oh, we went with this one. Um, because it was, um, like cheaper and stuff. And I was like, hang on a minute. We have a product that's like basically the exact same as that. And we know how much theirs is and ours is actually cheaper. So how did they, how did they kind of get there?

Drew (15:54.446)
And, and lo and behold, they weren't actually even getting down to a product level in our website. They were like landing on the landing page and being like, yeah, it's beautiful, but this isn't for me. And, and, and they're literally just assuming this will be expensive. I'm out of here. And so it didn't take too long for us to kind of like get those signals and then, and it was like, uh, then, then kind of like a, a challenging journey for us to unpick slowly the elements that were making the brand visual identity look too elevated and try and bring it back down to be in line with the product and the price point. And we were very apprehensive about it because we really loved how it looked. We were like, it's beautiful. And so it was of toning it down a little bit, which felt difficult because we'd also invested a meaningful amount of money in creating that beautiful look and feel.

So it felt like we were kind of like undoing our work, but actually in hindsight, it was like, no, no, no, we overshot the mark. And this is where we needed to be. That was kind of like the first major one. And then the next major one was around our business model. We started off with a business model where we were buying stuff from local wholesalers here in Sydney. And so we kind of like went out to the different wholesalers. Some of them told us to buzz off. They were like, no, we don't like that. And other ones were like, okay, sounds like a dumb idea, but like, sure, we'll sell you a tap, and so there was really like, not a lot of support, and it was all like "good luck" kind of a  vibe from those guys because obviously it wasn't really a business model they had seed before. And then we were kind of like representing the products on the website and then somebody would place an order and they get some of these and some of these and they come from a couple of different wholesalers and so we would then place orders from the wholesalers, bring those into our warehouse, consolidate the order and then ship it out to the customer. It's kind of glorified drop shipping with us as a consolidator of the order.

But what we started to realise as we gained a little bit of traction and we got the brand situation figured out was that it really wasn't-- the business was starting to grow and it was starting to scale but it was really scaling a break even business at best. And so it was like the unit economics here doesn't paint an interesting picture, like you know, 10 times zero is still zero when you grow the thing and that's not awesome.

And so we had to have a little bit of a hard think about what are the options here and ultimately it was like it's either wrap it up or double down. And wrapping up didn't feel like an option at the time based on how far we've come and how much more we felt like we had to offer. And so double down looked like, hey we need to go, we need to meet factories and we need to start buying products directly, importing them ourselves and doing our own warehousing and logistics and so that was sort of like the crossroads where the business increased in complexity quite a bit. And also like the financial needs of the business, the capital required to go and invest in the stock and bring it in and warehouse and do it all like it changed quite a bit. That was like a restructuring of the business model, pivoting of the business model that allowed us to then unlock that additional layer of margin which was kind of like what was required to make it a business that could even be worth scaling.

Caroline Kennedy (19:44.901)
Yeah. And it's interesting because that would have been very complex and an element of risk associated with it as well because of the capital that's required from the investment perspective. But I love what you said around looking at the business model and thinking, how do we make this commercially viable? Because ultimately, that's what you're in business for and it needs to be sustainable too.

What you shared earlier to around the customer and the different perceptions when they landed on the website is really interesting because it's so important to have that feedback loop, right? From if you can get it from a customer perspective because it'll always tell you the data points in the direction that you need to go in to be able to do I suppose to scale right and everything is about to a certain degree understanding the market.

And I always say growth is on the outside. And I mean like revenue growth, profitability growth is on the outside and a lot of organisations or businesses fail to, they focus a lot internally and not necessarily about market. And I think that's one of the key things I'm hearing from you is you're looking outside, you're looking at the market, but you're also looking from a business model perspective and saying, can we make this commercially viable? And that too is on the outside, even though it is kind of looking at the structure of the business, but it's looking at how do we do this better?

Caroline Kennedy (27:11.014)
Yeah. And I like what you said there about the handbrake because I talk a lot about obstacles and that could be problems, obstacles, but they're opportunities to be able to do things better. That ongoing improvement, looking at where are the leverage points in your business. And they generally are the handbrakes. If you start there and you can remove them as handbrakes, then you're able to get that traction. But there are always problems. There are always

obstacles and it's just about focusing on the right ones that shift the needle too, which is the critical part and being able to identify what they are. And what would you say was the, when was the turning point in your journey that everything started to click?

Drew (33:51.53)
Yeah.

Well, I mean, they were non-existent there for a bit too longer than we care to admit, but bringing in people into the team who had experience in setting up and kind of like putting a little bit of structure around what we were doing was really impactful in kind of like taking us to that next level of being a more professional organization and kind of like having an onboarding and those kinds of things, which you kind of...

look at it and you're like, yeah, I guess that is important as opposed to like, yeah, come sit next to me and we'll figure it out with our prior onboarding.

Caroline Kennedy (34:28.305)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that goes back to that analogy. You can't build a house without solid foundations and it's the same principle with the business, right? And since you're in the building industry, thought I'd use that analogy, but also to the life cycle stages of businesses. They have clear, I suppose, clear elements whereby

Drew (34:41.025)
Mm.

Caroline Kennedy (34:58.832)
you start to say, okay, well, we need more structure here. We might need a general manager or we might need a, you know, an expert in X, Y and Z area. And, and you guys, from what I'm hearing is you were able to identify that that was the opportunity to level up the business and to continue to level it up in those life cycle stages. Because now, even though you are no doubt still growing, but you've

reached a level of maturity too at that revenue level and at that structure level right.

Drew (35:34.113)
Yep, yeah, definitely. No, it feels like we're getting the hang of things.

Caroline Kennedy (35:39.504)
Yeah, no doubt about it. I'm sure you got the hang of things a while ago. Now, if you were to give some advice to entrepreneurs who are looking to scale their business, what would the top three tips be for them?

Drew (35:58.097)
top three tips, I would say one of the things that I would really recommend people do is get good at telling people what you do. think I think entrepreneurs, particularly in the early days, struggle to articulate what it is even that they do. They're really bogged down in jargon and kind of like technical nuance of their special thing that just

go straight over the head of people that are trying to listen and like, like, pitch it to your mom. And if she can't get it in a sentence, it's not right. Like you're not, you're not doing yourself any favors in the way that you're kind of like trying to articulate. And so you need to be able to kind of like anchor what you're doing to something that people have heard of before, or like understand and then be like, and then it's like, like, I think, I think a good example of

Caroline Kennedy (36:36.016)
you

Drew (36:56.491)
There's a business that's a trivial, like there's a business that was, they created, like, you could like rent out people's swimming pools. And they were like, we're the Airbnb of swimming pools. Where like, if you've got one, it's doing nothing, just rent it out and make money off it. It's like, yeah, the Airbnb of swimming pools. Like nobody had done it before attached it to a concept that people understand and then get them there like that. I think being able to do that really succinctly is super important because

that's helpful in, it just comes through in everything. Like if you're clear on that, you can A, talk to people about it, who are going to be the people that you need help from through your network and your, everybody needs to understand what you're doing to be able to help you. But it also is going to come through in your messaging to customers as well of like, why you, like what's different or interesting about you compared to, you know, competitors. And so I think it,

It is it sounds so like basic and fundamental, but if you can't pitch your business succinctly, you're really going to struggle. And I think I wasn't particularly good at it for quite a few years. But like, you know, as an example, just to be able to say to people and I can't even remember what I used to say to people because it was so convoluted about, and you know,

This is like, what do you do like a dinner party? What do you do? it's like, oh, well, you know, the tile industry is like a really outdated thing. And so like, there's these old ways to do it. And you start going on this like rambling journey of like, war and peace. And it's like, no, just get to the point. It's like, Hey, we specialize in tiles for bathroom innovations. Okay, I got it. And then if there's like some interest there, you can go a little bit deeper. And it's like,

You can like maybe talk about, you know, what makes you special or who you've helped. then, you know, and, just to be able to do that stuff kind of very naturally is, is, is a really important skill. And it's like, Hey, we, help people bring their dreams to life. And we've helped over 10,000 renovators kind of like complete their first renovation, you know, faster and easier than they thought possible. And all of a you're like, okay, I get it. And actually that sounds like pretty good.

Drew (39:16.223)
And it sounds like you're delivering like an outcome there that most renovators would be interested in. So you have my attention.

Caroline Kennedy (39:23.248)
Yeah. And then the next logical question to that is, is how right so you've sparked their interest to Yeah.

Drew (39:30.229)
Yeah. then, know, most of the time, most people's businesses are born out of a frustrating experience or some deeper understanding of a problem that the average person doesn't understand and any unique way to go about solving that. so like in our case, we love to talk about this idea that we, myself included with my renovation experience, but now more broadly, our team has a unique ability to help kind of like,

people will bring in their inspiration to us of what a dream outcome looks like to them. And it might be a Pinterest board or some reference images. And that we can look at that stuff and we can play that back to them and say, you know, what I'm seeing is this kind of stuff here. Does this look like, you know, it would fit into your dream mood board and build a connection that we really do understand what their dream looks like. And then all of sudden we can build some trust there. And then

Caroline Kennedy (40:22.3)
Yep. Yep.

Drew (40:27.083)
What we can then do is we can start to talk a little bit about other customers who we have recently helped get a dream outcome very similar to one that they're interested in and connect the dots to other people just like them that also use our services. And then the very last thing is to be like, and by the way, when we helped that person get that dream outcome, which you would also like, we used these products to do it. like connecting up the products at the end is like, that's the easy part.

somebody can walk in and show me the picture and I can just be like, well, that's that and that's that. And we can just spin them around and off they go. But we need to help them understand that we see the vision and that we are able to be the ones to bring that to life for them. And so we need to be good listeners and we need to bring them on the journey of kind of like building that shared understanding and then also building that trust that we will be helping them bring that dream to life.

Caroline Kennedy (41:25.52)
Yeah. And that's that emotional connection. And it can be lost a lot. People think you're buying a product, actually not. You're buying the journey and the dream and the, connection with it, the emotion people buy based on emotion. And if you can gen genuinely, build that connection, then the rest is irrelevant. Yeah. Yeah. Great.

Drew (41:50.965)
Yeah.

Caroline Kennedy (41:54.788)
And what's the future hold for your business? What's next?

Drew (41:59.947)
What's next for us? I think there's a couple of sort of areas of the business that we're particularly excited about. One is kind of like a very rapidly growing trade component to what we do. So we always knew there was demand there from specifiers and builders in particular to supply our products to their projects or clients.

But we almost didn't give ourselves permission to kind of like build another universe tailored to them because we were so focused on the retail customer. And it's only been in the last sort of like less than 12 months where we were like, okay, we think we've gotten this to a place now where we can start to put a bit of energy into what would it look like if we were going to treat this customer in the way that they would like to be treated and give them the resources they need to do what they need to do. And so it's been a really meaningful amount of work.

that's going into getting ourselves organized there. And we started with a trade signup link at the bottom of the website, just a little hyperlink. We haven't run any ads to it. We haven't really created awareness for it as a program per se, but people are starting to sign up for the program. That kind of really have been knowing about it. And I think it speaks to the kind of like brand awareness that we've created with the

Caroline Kennedy (43:18.47)
Wow, that's great. Yeah.

Drew (43:26.453)
you know, the kind of like retail objective, it's there is a lot of sort of like background awareness there. And so as we continue to build out this trade offering, yet we're pretty excited about what you know, how we can support those customers into the future. And there's different products and different pricing structures and different resources that they need to do what they need to do. And that hasn't been the priority. And you know,

And now we're able to put some focus into that side. And then the other one, which I think is really meaningful as well is, is a continued kind of like understanding of like how we like, how like how we're actually helpful and like why, like why us, why do people even choose us and learning more about ourself and what's been impactful has really shaped kind of like

the direction that we go. And I think that we definitely didn't know it at the time, but what we've heard from customers as we've continued to explore that is that it's much less about the product specifically and much more about this skill of being able to get on the same page with what that vision looks like and then do the work to connect up the dots for them of how to bring that to life.

and then get that dream result for them. Particularly when there's a little bit of technical work to do along the way in getting the right products. In the context of tiles, hey, is this going to be slippery on the bathroom floor? Or I want to use it in this area, will it stand up to that? There's some technical stuff, and then there's measuring and wastage and different things like that that the average renovator is going to have some questions about that we can really help with. It's like this stuff,

Don't worry about all that, that industry jargon and whatever. Here's the stuff that's important. Let's work through that and then we'll get you on your way. Kind of an approach has been really impactful. just the insight that that's not limited to Tile specifically and that we can help in other product verticals. And so that was kind of the genesis of our sister brand Yabby, which is a brand focused on tapware. And so yeah, continuing to build out.

Caroline Kennedy (45:42.386)
Mmm.

Drew (45:50.123)
build out that brand and how it helps as well. Same kind of like philosophy on how to help, but just in a different product.

Caroline Kennedy (45:59.409)
Yeah, that's really interesting. When you were talking earlier, I was thinking to myself, well, they could do this with tiles. They could do this with a whole product suite for renovations. And it's exactly what you're starting to do.

Drew (46:09.313)
Mm.

Drew (46:13.215)
Yeah. Tips for young entrepreneurs, let's circle back to that one. Don't dilute your focus too much, I think is really important. We took seven years before we gave ourselves permission to look at a different subset of customers in our core business, let alone start a side project or spin off and get distracted by these different lights here, there, or everywhere. So I think focus is pretty important.

Caroline Kennedy (46:20.208)
Yes. Yeah.

Caroline Kennedy (46:31.248)
Yep.

Caroline Kennedy (46:41.702)
Yeah, bright shiny things, entrepreneurs, we love it, don't we? And then we go, hang on a minute. Yeah, and I love that. Don't dilute your focus. I say that a lot to people and it's so true. One last question for you before we wrap up. What legacy do you hope to leave with Tile Cloud and anything that you do really?

Drew (47:05.545)
I think that I have been fortunate in like, I've gotten a lot of joy personally out of being able to bring my creative ideas to life through renovations. you know, everybody has a creative outlet when they're a kid scribble on the page or whatever. And as you get older and older, these opportunities to be creative get less and less. so renovating,

Caroline Kennedy (47:26.898)
Yeah.

Drew (47:34.089)
is almost like a adult art and craft is the creative outlet to kind of like leave our stamp on, you know, our environment and, know, create a space that we, you know, we're excited about and kind of like is what we would love. And I think that that's been really special. And, you know, I've done five renovations now and, the last couple of those that ended up in magazines. And so I think that being able to kind of like bring those ideas to life and for people to like really appreciate them.

so much that they want to share them as well is kind of, you know, strong signals that doing a pretty good job of it. And I think that, I think if I could leave a legacy, it's that we have a system, we have a way of working where we can help other people bring their ideas kind of from that dreaming phase to real life. And we just want to be able to unlock that for everybody because it feels incredible to wake up.

Caroline Kennedy (48:24.976)
Yeah.

Drew (48:30.049)
and you know, stumble out of your bed and go into your freshly renovated bathroom and like have a beautiful skylight and the sun lights flooding in and like you just start your day energized in this like beautiful space. Like it actually is a really uplifting feeling that I get every day from a, you know, a project that I designed that has my fingerprints all over it, along with my wife. She had a say in a lot of it as well, but like that, that just, that feeling is awesome. And I, you know,

If somebody is going to go through the trouble of doing a renovation and there is meaningful energy that goes into that, the amount of energy that goes into a renovation that kind of misses the mark and one that is this dream outcome that could end up in a magazine, the energy is the same. And so it's like, if we can add a little expertise layer and send more people down the magazine outcome path, that's the goal.

Caroline Kennedy (49:23.096)
Yeah, I love that. And I can feel your passion for what you do. And I think that is so critical. And your passion for your, you know, the customers that you work with, the outcomes that they get, you're, you're very much invested in them. And I think that shines through a lot. And I think from today's story, it shows us the power of innovation.

Drew (49:41.889)
Thank

Caroline Kennedy (49:51.1)
perseverance to and reimagining traditional industries. So thank you, Drew, for sharing your journey with us. I truly appreciate it. And to our listeners, if you've been inspired today by Drew's journey and listening to his insights, and don't forget to subscribe to the Honest CEO Show. And for more insightful stories from entrepreneurs and business leaders,

You can have a look at carolinekennedy.com.au and also download and listen to us on Spotify and any of the streaming platforms for podcasts. Thank you again, Drew. I really appreciated your time today and I can't wait to share your journey with our audience.

Drew (50:42.175)
Thanks, Caroline.