Ep 26. Elizabeth McIntyre, CEO of Think Brick – The Honest CEO Show

The Honest CEO Show, Episode 26: Elizabeth McIntyre, CEO of Think Brick

Caroline Kennedy (00:21)
Welcome and today my guest is Elizabeth McIntyre, the CEO of Think Brick, which is the Australian industry body for clay brick and paver manufacturers. Elizabeth's career journey has been far from a straight line from Ford Motorsports and V8 supercars to children's TV with Walt Disney Television International.

And now in construction as CEO of Think Brick, Elizabeth's career has spanned roles in diverse industries. I'm really excited to chat to Elizabeth today and we're going to chat about her interesting career journey and her advice for anyone considering changing career direction and for anyone considering progressing to a CEO role while being a C-suite executive. Welcome Elizabeth and thank you for joining us.

Elizabeth McIntyre (01:22)
Absolutely pleasure.

Caroline Kennedy (01:23)
Now tell us about yourself and your career.

Elizabeth McIntyre (01:26)
I guess it depends on how far you want to start, but most of the common questions I am asked is how did I go from Disney to Bricks? So I think if I look at the last 10 or 12 years, I was asked to go in and manage at that time the Ford V8 supercar program, the marketing of it. And I really had no understanding or interest in motor cars or the automotive industry at the time.

And that was challenging for me, but out of that, I think I saw a wonderful potential of how you could engage stakeholders and people for a brand. Then from that, that sort of became, when you look back at my career, what I've become known for is I think really that engagement piece around organisations and brands that are trying to remain relevant. Certainly my most current role is how we could try to get brick back to being a little bit more contemporary and used in contemporary design.

Caroline Kennedy (02:31)
I think that that certainly is a great explanation of your career and certainly you've able to transition into varied industries which a lot of people can find quite challenging yet you've been able to do that quite seamlessly so congratulations.

Elizabeth McIntyre (02:50)
I'm glad it appears that way. I think it was Steve Jobs that said, you can only connect the dots looking back, not forward. So I think when I look back in my career, I consider the common themes and really they all revolve around remaining relevant to particular audiences. But I think at the time I didn't, in some cases, curiosity has gotten the better of me and I was really curious about an industry. And I think, you know, it was after I was in that industry and I could see that I could make change, really I probably became more confident into going into other industries where I wasn't from. And I think objectivity is a really important skill to be able to transfer. And certainly I've really enjoyed learning about the different industries that I've been a part of along the way.

Caroline Kennedy (03:37)
Yep. And that's a very valid point in regards to objectivity, particularly in going into an industry. And I always encourage businesses to look outside of their industry for a particular skill set because fresh eyes can bring a completely new perspective to industries where tunnel vision can exist.

Elizabeth McIntyre (04:01)
It's true and I think also you've got to remember that real change occurs once you get into the mainstream. mean for cars you're always going to sell to the car enthusiasts. We're always going to sell to brick lovers, but as I like to call them. How do you really widen that approach and how do you really move from just marketing or just engaging the enthusiasts to really looking into the mainstream audience and getting that crossover. And I think that's really is the key. And that's where objectivity is important. Because I think with the way some industries are, they're just used to doing things a certain way or used to marketing in a certain way or engaging in a certain way, which will have worked for a long time, but it may not still be working for them.

Caroline Kennedy (04:50)
Not very valid. And tell us about ThinkBrick.

Elizabeth McIntyre (04:55)
So I think Brick represents the clay, brick and paver manufacturers of Australia. So our members include Austral Bricks, PGH Bricks and Brickmakers in Western Australia. So we're really here to have and facilitate conversations with important sectors and stakeholders. And what that means is for us, it's about promoting the category of Brick, ensuring from a technical perspective, that people are building correctly in brick and masonry.

So we sit on around 60 standards Australia committees. And the other key facilitation of our role is the engagement with architects, which we've done through the Think Brick Awards. And I think that we provide a lot of training both to our own members, but also a lot of education with regards to architectural and engineers in terms of the resources that we have, the technical manuals that we produce and some of the easier ways to design using our product.

Caroline Kennedy (05:56)
Certainly sounds like quite a broad spectrum of reach in terms of who you reach and the influence that you have as well, which is great. Yeah. Now, traditionally CEO roles have been filled by individuals with financial skillset and CFOs being promoted into CEO positions. however, from my experience is that it's not necessarily the best move to promote CFOs being that they're all about the numbers. Yet in saying that, I see a lot of sales and marketing, particularly marketing disciplines coming through into CEO roles and you're a prime example of that. And I think from what I've experienced is that marketers who really know the numbers and see patterns and can really identify patterns and look at insights from that are able to transition to those CEO roles quite seamlessly. So what are your thoughts on that given that you've come from that background?

Elizabeth McIntyre (07:03)
I think when I remember when I was studying years ago, there was sort of a lot of trends on the rise of marketing people that had were getting a greater prominence in CEO roles. And I certainly think from a marketing and sales background, it's important because if you're you know, if you're not selling your product, or if you're not moving the needle, then it's very difficult to justify your existence.

So I think for those marketers that are very commercially focused, and when I say that, for me, what that means is that if when I'm engaging or when I'm in charge of engaging with strategy, with a particular audience, the outcome has got to be that they will either buy that product or engage in that service. I think that's really, really valuable to organisations. And that's probably why you have seen the rise of more of a marketing background and more of a sales background of people coming in to CEO positions, because that's become really important for sustainability for a lot of businesses.

Caroline Kennedy (08:04)
Yeah, I would absolutely agree. And particularly around relevance in this ever changing market. And I'm going to ask you some questions about that later, but relevance is key. And also the commercial aspect of anything that you do, but coupled with, you know, using insights, et cetera. And I think marketing roles have evolved to become more holistic as well. But you're right at the end of the day, if you're not making the sales or selling the product, then the rest is irrelevant. Yeah. Now we've both operated in male dominated industries and I'd love to hear your leadership advice ⁓ for starting out in similar industries, whether they are male dominated or not, but particularly for female leaders who do want to sit at that C-suite level. What advice do you have for people starting out?

Elizabeth McIntyre (09:03)
Okay. Look, I think this is a question that we all get asked a lot. And particularly, I think what I am a big believer in is that you can't be what you can't see. So I think that it's really important for the youthful and the younger generation and young women coming up to be able to see that they can succeed, that they can be in management roles and CEO roles, because I think that's really that visual presence is very, very important.

But I think when I look back at my experience in male dominated industries, which possibly has been very much again an unconscious one, I like to talk about one of my favorite stories was when I started at Ford and I remember going down to the paddock, which is where all the V8 supercar drivers and teams were. And one of the team owners said to me, I'm not going to be told what to do by any Sheila in this paddock. And I remember just sort of taking that in and I think there's one of two things you can do there. You can go away and sort of cry in a corner and give up or I think you can sort of go away and think well how can I approach this differently and one of my key lessons that I really learned as a female ⁓ and I think this still has meaning for men as well is that when you're in a position where you don't have a lot of knowledge or it's slightly intimidating.

There's a lot to be said for the power of presence and being there. And I certainly decided in that moment that, yep, I didn't know anything about cars, but I was certainly going to make it my mission to know as much as I possibly could. And what I used to do then was I'd just stand in the garages of, I'd stand out of the way, but I'd stand and I'd watch and I'd consistently be there and try to understand.

What I'd find was that along the way, they'd come and see whether I was okay and whether I had any questions. And I found that just that power of the presence and that people can't ignore you forever certainly held me in really good stead. And it's one thing that I've really carried with me. It's very powerful to be there, to look and to see how things work. Once they understand that you have actually taken an interest in how they do things, I think that it really does open up quite a few doors in your contribution to that process.

But I think that women are probably, and certainly women that have survived in male dominated industries are quite resilient. And certainly I think that it's just an approach that you have to decide, you know, whether you want to, I guess, inside of you want to prove people wrong, which is probably what's driven me, or whether that environment is not for you.

I certainly find in my personality and the fact that I'm very results driven, I'm quite upfront and I tend to be quite blunt in how I approach things. That has worked well for me in these environments, but if that doesn't lend to your personality, then it might be more challenging for you.

Caroline Kennedy (12:12)
And I would completely agree with that because everything that you've just said, I support in terms of looking at the industries that you work in and you're not conscious of it. It's like the glass ceiling. When people talk about the glass ceiling, I was never conscious of it. I just knew that I was ambitious and I wanted to learn and develop and that's what drove the ambition.

So crossing over to into new industry. So for instance, when I went from travel, which is still quite male dominated, but into the building industry and I didn't know how to build a house, but I didn't need to. had the builders doing that fundamentally, their principles of business were all the same. And that's where I brought the skillset to be able to manage holistically a business and get the best out of the business from a commercial perspective but also from a cultural perspective and looking at being customer centric. But you're right about the results driven element of that. And even when you talk about being blunt, you know, one of the things like I'm known for is my honesty. And I will be honest with anyone, whether they like it or not. But I think that that's a part of the process as well. And I hope that people are honest with me in return so we can just get on with whatever we need to do.

Elizabeth McIntyre (13:35)
Yeah, and look, think that there is definitely that notion of that when you, I don't think there's an easy shortcut when you're going through these industries. And I think most men would agree with that one. But when you look at how women are promoted, it is usually based on their past experience and their results. Whereas if you look at how men are promoted, it's normally based on their potential. So I certainly think that, you know, by the time women have succeeded in business, you know, they've certainly had to proven themselves over and over again.

And I hope that they're, and I do feel that there is change occurring around that particular area. But I will say that even in my current role and in my past role, I think that what I have brought to the diversity of the debate has been well respected. And I certainly do think that there is an appetite for that now. But I would encourage, if you're not in an environment that brings out the best in you, whether that's for both men and women. But particularly if you are conscious that there are those glass ceilings around, perhaps that's not the best environment for you to remain in.

Caroline Kennedy (14:41)
Yep. That is very true. And that leads me to my next question, which is really about what are the top three tips you have, particularly for women, but for anyone in general. But I think women are more inclined to hold back. So it is what are the top three tips in regards to putting themselves forward.

Elizabeth McIntyre (15:03)
All right. Well, I think my first one is I think it's always important to broaden your scope and opportunities. And I guess what I would say is that even though my experience has involved changing industries and roles, it doesn't necessarily mean changing jobs, but it does perhaps mean looking at whether you could broaden your scope. For example, could you move into another department? Could you, you know, or another division to facilitate that? You know, what other arms does the current organisation that you're working with have that you could perhaps broaden your skills. I'm a huge believer in continuous learning. And I think that that's one thing I try and impart to my team. And I certainly foster and facilitate. And I think that for anyone to want to grow and to broaden their skills, they need to be taken to take on feedback. And they also need to be continuously learning, you know, in, in then there's so many different ways to do that.

These days you can listen to free online lectures while you're doing your exercise. So it doesn't necessarily have to be by doing a course, but I think that from a personal development level, I would certainly encourage that to enhance your career. So I think that's really attractive to employers where they know that people are willing to improve themselves and also willing to do what that takes. I think that's just such a positive, I guess, quality to have.

Caroline Kennedy (16:27)
Yeah. And you know, I firmly believe that to be a great leader and even as an employee, self-awareness is critical and looking at and being real with yourself about, so where are my skills set and where are the gaps? And even through asking your mentor or the leader or the manager within your organisation, where do you see I could further develop? Where are my strengths? Where are my weaknesses? Where are those gaps and then actually working to remove them as such so that you can start to broaden that skill set towards the course of the career development that you're looking for.

Elizabeth McIntyre (17:13)
I Yeah, I agree. My second tip would probably be about what you do. I think you've got to be really passionate about what you do. I have a saying that if I can't get passionate about bricks, how could I expect anyone else to? And certainly there's been situations where one of our award winning buildings, I've seen it in, you know, in the flesh and I've run up to it and I've, you know, touched it and sort of got excited about it. And remember one architect saying, I've never seen anyone react to brick like that. But you know, that is my true feeling because that's the business that I'm in.

And I've sort of, and I really believe that you can't, if you're not passionate about what you do and who you're standing for, it's very difficult to encourage other people to be the same. And that doesn't necessarily revolve on the organisation you're working for. Obviously that makes a difference. But if you're an accountant, you want to be passionate about numbers or if you're a graphic designer, want to be passionate about creativity. So I think that's where I'm coming from in that point.

Caroline Kennedy (18:16)
Yeah, very true. And I think, you know, what I've always said to individuals is, know, if they've complained, for instance, and that happens, people say, I don't like this. I don't like that. And then I say, well, if you're not happy and you're not loving what you're doing and you don't have to love it all the time, there are ups and downs. We all know that. But if you're not really passionate about what you do, then don't do it. Find something you are passionate about.

And I remember once a team member saying to me, you're asking me to leave. And I said, no, that's not what I'm saying to you. But if you don't like what you're doing and you're constantly finding the negative in anything, in everything, then perhaps it's time to look for something else.

Elizabeth McIntyre (19:01)
I think my last sort of tip is a little bit reflective of both of those things. But I think leaders and people who are successful do back themselves, but they've also got to have the courage to do so. And I think, you know, that that sort of saying of failure is an orphan, but success as many fathers is true. You know, when everything goes well, everyone wants to take credit for it. But I think a leader not only needs to take the courage to make those decisions and try those new things but also to be resilient enough that when it doesn't work out that they get back and they, you know, they get back up and go and try something else or get to work the next morning. So I think people need to ask themselves what motivates them? What are they really doing this for? And because when things get really low and you don't want to get out of bed.

You've got to be able to dig deep and find that resilience in yourself and have that real meaning as to why you're pursuing this particular career or this particular path. And those would be my most, I think that those would be my biggest tips.

Caroline Kennedy (20:06)
Yeah, and they're good ones, definitely. Now, I know we're talking about women a lot, but I think given your experience, you know, and a lot of women listen to the podcast, that's why I'm sort of focusing on it. We'll go into the business side later, but ⁓ from my perspective, I've encountered quite a few women who think that after having a child, their career can't progress and it holds them back.

And you're a prime example of that, that it doesn't actually hold women back, that you can have both. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but that it is possible. so what advice do you have for women who believe that they can't progress after having kids? If they want to, that's, that's another, I think, element that I want to throw in there. Not everyone wants that, but for women that do want that, what advice would you give them?

Elizabeth McIntyre (21:00)
Look, I think that having children brings so many wonderful qualities that I don't think as women in the workplace we embellish enough. know, most mothers out there would know exactly the amount of strategy that they are applying every single day when they wake up. If you've got to get three children to different places or to school and prepared, you are strategic. You are a planner. You know about logistics and I'll tell you something, you are really efficient in what you're doing. And those are all skills that without knowing it, you can bring to the workplace. I know when I employ particularly mums that they are very efficient in what they do. They're going to get you straight to the point that they need to do it and they're going to get you there as quickly as possible.

And they're normally really thorough because normally they just do not have time to muck around. And I'm not saying that people without children don't have that ability, but I think being a mother, really brings all of those things to a tipping point, so to speak. I think when it comes to, you know, women and working after children, what I encourage people to do is please stay in the workforce, even if it's just one or two days a week. I think being out of the workforce for an extended period of time makes it hard for everyone, but mainly for yourself in terms of your confidence. So if there's some opportunity where you can and come into work or be involved in special projects, I just think that is absolutely so valuable for your own development. And I think that there's a lot of discussion around, you know, women working and the childcare fees and it perhaps almost equaling what it costs. And I just really believe that that look, it's wrong in so many parts of the world, including Australia.

But I think that you would rather that that really is adding to your long term career prospects. But in saying that, I hope that no one interprets this as insane. If people don't want to go back to work, that's entirely their own decision. But I do like to encourage women when they ask me what my advice is, I try to say, look, stay a part of it for as long as you can and at an input level that you can cope with.

I think it's just so important for women to maintain that conversation and to be able to have that little bit of time to themselves where they can achieve, you know, or do some things and actually get thanks for them or feel that they've achieved in a day. That's very different to motherhood. And I'm not saying that that's not rewarding, but I think, you know, sometimes particularly in those early stages, when you have your children, it's very difficult to get any feedback. And I know that, you know, just being able to do simple things like have something to think about, be able to get your own coffee. I think it is enormous for what that does for women's self-esteem and confidence.

Caroline Kennedy (23:55)
I would agree completely with that. And I know from my situation after I had my son, I was back at work by six months and a lot of people were critical of, you going back to work so early? And maybe it was five months, but for me it was important because I, and everybody's different, but I needed to be fulfilled on another level and, and made me a better mom to my son as well.

And I think a lot of organisations nowadays are also willing to look at flexible work arrangements. I mean, I negotiated to work on a part-time basis and certainly I can tell you, I did a full-time job during part-time hours and a lot of women do that. And so it is of benefit to an organisation to consider the flexibility that they can provide for women.

Elizabeth McIntyre (24:45)
Also the fact that I used to always say that you would be thinking about it five days a week, even if you're only working two or three. know, I think as I said, it's a wonderful asset. The other thing that I, the only other point that I'd want to make around that particular example of women at work, I really feel that what normally happens and certainly I'm not immune to this experience is that women do try to, whilst they're having it all, they're trying to do it all. And I think it's really important for women to get help.

And again, if it's meaning that that is getting a cleaner or an iron or some help whilst you're fulfilling some aspects of the work that you're doing, that is very important. That all comes down to that sanity check. But I do see that women not only go back to work, but they don't relinquish some of the responsibilities that they have at home. And that is one of the wonders of us being able to multitask, but it's also one of our greatest weaknesses in the sense that we tend to overwhelm ourselves with so much. Whereas,  as they say, sometimes men just can do one thing at once. And I think that's worked well for them.

Caroline Kennedy (25:55)
Yeah, yeah, we try to be super women sometimes. Yes, we really do.

Elizabeth McIntyre (25:59)
We do. And again, I really encourage that you get the help and that that is not, you know, I always say I'd rather be earning money paying for help rather than doing it myself.

Caroline Kennedy (26:13)
Yeah, yeah, especially cleaning the house, right? agree. And I'm sure many women do. No need.

Elizabeth McIntyre (26:21)
It's a real trap I see people falling into and I think actually in a lot of cases it's an unconscious one. But you know sort of see you know women and they've got to 10 o'clock in the morning they've been up since some ungodly hour put on three loads of washing you know prepared all the lunches got to work and then they're kind of doing it all again when they get home and they wonder why they're exhausted you know and that's why so I just there is is help out there.

Caroline Kennedy (26:49)
And I think it's great to have those conversations too, because it's like saying, saying to someone, give you permission. You don't need to be everything to everybody and do it all yourself. It's okay to say, to ask for help or to seek help. because women certainly, you know, when it comes to guilt around family and even work, we tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves and we need to not do that as much, so it's great to have those conversations.

Elizabeth McIntyre (27:22)
Hmm, yeah, I totally agree.

Caroline Kennedy (27:24)
Yeah. Now, as I mentioned before about, you know, my definition of great leaders is around self-awareness is one of the critical aspects. Yet I've actually witnessed many leaders that lack self-awareness and it holds their business back and it holds them back too. So what are your thoughts and advice for leaders about being more self-aware?

Elizabeth McIntyre (27:50)
I think it really does come down to that what I was talking about before in terms of continuous learning. And I think it really does if you're not open to being self-aware and knowing what your impact could be, both positive and negative, that there's that awareness of that. And then what you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you. So I guess I would probably answer that question in saying I think it's important, but I don't think that you can enforce it on anyone. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. So I do feel that for people that are self-aware, they tend to operate a lot more effectively, or they can acknowledge where their strengths and their weaknesses are and play to their strengths. But at the same time, some people are just not interested in finding that out.

Caroline Kennedy (28:40)
Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. And I think that that probably comes back to, you know, the, as you say about the bluntness and the honesty, if you can be that way with others, you can actually be that way with yourself as well. And that helps create the self-awareness.

Elizabeth McIntyre (28:56)
But I also think, you know, I've looked at a couple of leaders that, you know, that have done well in particular environments or in particular parts of a generation where that worked. You know, even we know now with our own children, I'm sure I'm not the only parent that is saying out there, I never spoke to my mother like this, I never did it this way. But the thing is though that the world is changing and it has changed. And how you adapt to that is probably very reflective of your leadership style.

And whilst as a leader, you can maintain a style throughout your whole career in some environments, maybe you can't in others. And so I sort of see some leaders where they did really well in the first part of their career and then the world changed on them, but they didn't. And again, that's that sort of awareness of how things are changing. And certainly, you know, in this day and age, we have to look at the fact that millennials or others the way the world works and expectations in the workplace are really different now. And there's a reason for that. And they'll be different for my children as well. But I think we just need to be aware of that and try to adapt that when we can. I think it's that lack of awareness around not only what your style is, but how things are changing and how comfortable you are on that level is sometimes where leaders become unstuck.

Caroline Kennedy (30:19)
That's very true and you see that a lot in where you look at the old school management and how leadership and management has evolved. And some people do evolve with it and others don't for varied reasons, but you do need to continue to evolve.

Elizabeth McIntyre (30:37)
And as I was saying, it does work in some industries and in some environments, know, that others have been more adaptable to change or that have changed quite dramatically.

Caroline Kennedy (30:47)
It depends on how fast they evolve as well. Yeah. And now we talked about remaining relevant and certainly that's something that you raised earlier on in the conversation, which I absolutely believe in, especially in this ever changing and disruptive era that we live in. What are your thoughts and tips on remaining relevant?

Elizabeth McIntyre (31:12)
Look, I think it's probably taking a bit of a litmus test on who your core base is and looking at where that has changed or not. know, whether you're still delivering the same product to the same people and if that's enough to sustain you. Obviously in a lot of businesses that I've been in and particularly I think I could probably use an example here with Disney. You know, they're really become affected by the fact that Disney had such a great heritage brand, but it was being lost on this next generation. Because say for me, when I was growing up, the biggest thing I wanted to do was maybe go to Disneyland. That was my key trip as a child. Whereas children have a lot more options these days, you know, and suddenly that may not be every child's great desire.

So it's really looking at whether what you're offering to the marketplace is still you know, engaged at that level of offering. And then how can you look at different ways of engaging with that particular audience? And so I think in what had happened in both these roles and other roles is that there'd been a certain amount of complacency as to, you know, the strength of the brand or the organisation. And certainly if I was to use the example with Bricks, you know, for so many years, no one really chose to building anything else. So there was this a little bit of complacency about, you know, why you needed to constantly remind people of the benefits. And then I think you had a situation where people were finding alternative solutions and the benefits of bricks weren't actually being realised until after the building was built. And so you've got a real lack of education piece there. So I think hopefully in summing up, I can say that my message is not to be complacent and to always be checking within your audience base and in certainly commercial terms whether they are still delivering sustainability for your business because what you may find over time is that that's been eroded away.

Caroline Kennedy (33:22)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that is a great, that is great advice because complacency does exist, especially when you've been trading for a long time and you don't really see the shift in the market because it's subtle over time. Sometimes that that complacency and remaining relevant and looking at your customer, as you say, is key to keeping up with evolution.

Elizabeth McIntyre (33:49)
Yeah, I look, I am a bit, think the word disruptive is being overused at the moment. But you do look at the impact of Uber on the taxi industry and that competition has been fabulous for everyone. know, now there's greater ways of finding taxis. You've got greater flexibility in price. Everyone's had to lift their service. But you do have to wonder, like, why did it take a competitor to do that? Why couldn't the industry itself have become a little bit more relevant?

And so that's, to me, it's not about so much the disruption of that, it is about how they fail to remain relevant. And of course, when other solutions come up, that's when they're immediately grasped on.

Caroline Kennedy (34:31)
Yeah. Well, I remember when I was operating in the travel industry and we were wholesalers, we selling to retail travel agents predominantly with a bit of direct, but people's buying habits changed with online when that came into play. And then it started to erode our market share and it took quite a long time to convince the board that that was actually occurring.

And it was through, as you say, going out and doing research with the customer base, presenting the facts and the figures and saying, guys, if we don't remain relevant and if we don't look at strategies to combat this, the business will no longer exist or it'll be a fraction of what it is today.

And so many other operators in that industry didn't survive, you know, because of the complacency, because they'd just delivered the same old, same old for so many years, like 20, 30, 40 years that they thought it was going to remain that way forever. and you don't see it coming. And then when it does, you have to react very quickly. Otherwise it can have a massive impact on your business.

Elizabeth McIntyre (35:46)
Yeah, and I think the vigilance around that, look, I think it can happen over time and you may not want to come to terms with that, or it can happen really quickly. So I think it's just remaining vigilant about whether you are being complacent or not.

Caroline Kennedy (36:01)
Now what advice do you have for anyone that's struggling in business? A big question I know struggling in terms of I'm just trying to understand from a personal perspective or from a business perspective, I think a little bit of both. think that they kind of come together if your business isn't doing too well, then that has an effect on your mindset too.

Elizabeth McIntyre (36:23)
Yeah, I think in those situations you've really got to look and try and understand what your intent is. So if your intent is to take the business somewhere or to do something when you're within that business, you've got to look at how far along the pathway you are. If you're on a road that where you can see that there's an end in sight or you choose to do something for another purpose then I think that that's always quite valuable. Whereas I think if you don't know what you're doing or you've got no real direction where you're going, obviously you're frustrated or disillusioned as to why you're doing the things you're doing.

So I think it really comes down to having those personal goals and that can be business goals as well. And whether what you're doing is contributing to them or whether it's not. And if it's not, it's probably indicating to you either you've lost your way or that maybe you need to make some more important decisions.

Caroline Kennedy (37:27)
Yeah, yeah, very true. And I think sometimes as we talked about earlier as well, is that you can look at, know, having somebody to perhaps come in and work with you and be that sounding board for your business as well. Cause sometimes we can get caught up in our own stuff.

Elizabeth McIntyre (37:43)
Oh, you know, and it's the questions people ask you to make you think about those answers, you know, why are you here if you're not enjoying it? And as I said, there's either going to be an answer to that that's going to be reassuring you or one that's going to be going, I don't think so. And then saying that I think, you know, that's not to say that in your career and in business that everything is, you know, always dandy and always everything's running its own way you know there are tough times or there's what I call them lessons and some days I say Lord I don't need another lesson today you know but there's you know what is the gift out of what you're currently going through is there a gift that you can take from it an experience or a lesson or if it is just really unpleasant you may want to think twice about what you're doing.

Caroline Kennedy (38:32)
Yeah, that's very true. And finally, what keeps you awake at night?

Elizabeth McIntyre (38:38)
Oh, I would say that the 1 % has affected me in a good and a bad way. I do worry about things. I guess everyone worries about their family and their children. And certainly if something's going on in that space, that would keep me awake. If there's situations where things aren't following through in a clockwise manner, that really frustrates me. And that really probably does keep me up at night.

Caroline Kennedy (39:04)
Yeah, I think that they're, especially the family one, I know, and I'm like you, I'm a worrywart, I worry too much. I don't know what it is.

Elizabeth McIntyre (39:14)
I've heard some people talk about they compartmentalise and they just put that in a box and they put that away and I don't think I've ever achieved that yet. You might interview me next in the next five years and ask me how I'm going with it but I haven't achieved that as yet.

Caroline Kennedy (39:31)
Well, that's part of the evolution, isn't it? The ongoing learning and development and just improving or at least striving to do so anyway. Well, thank you so much for your time, Elizabeth. It's been a real pleasure. Of course, that's what we do. It certainly was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. And I know our listeners will get quite a bit out of it too. Especially those that really want to focus on, who are ambitious and want to look at progressing their career and I think you certainly are a role model for women to be able to say if you can, they can. So thank you.

Elizabeth McIntyre (40:10)
Yes, pleasure, absolute pleasure.