Ep. 35 Jane Grover, CEO of Southern Metropolitan Cemeteries Trust – The Honest CEO Show

The Honest CEO Show, Episode 37: Jane Grover, CEO of Southern Metropolitan Cemetery Trust

Caroline Kennedy (00:01.58)
Welcome to the Honest CEO Show where we uncover authentic journeys of remarkable leaders. I'm your host Caroline Kennedy and today I'm thrilled to be joined with Jane Grover, a seasoned CEO and executive leader who's led organisations such as the Southern Metropolitan Cemetery Trust which we'll call SMCT for short because that's a tongue twister and she's also held roles at Crown Resort and Box Hill Institute.

Jane is a transformational leader who notably redefined the role of the cemeteries in the community. Under her guidance, SMCT has embraced innovation, creatively compassionate and meaningful experiences for the families in the community.

But beyond her accomplishments as a CEO, Jane's leadership is a testament to the power of purpose, which we were just talking about before we got recording. Strategy driven and community engagement and putting the customer at the heart of everything that you do. So today we're going to explore Jane's journey, how she came to lead SMCT and the challenge she's faced in transforming such a traditional sector. So welcome to the show Jane.

Jane Louise Grover (01:28.877)
Thank you for having me, Caroline, and I'm very excited to share my insights and my journey over the past three and a half decades of my executive career with the listeners today.

Caroline Kennedy (01:42.114)
Yeah, we're so fortunate to have you here. So Jane, take us back to the beginning of your career. What were some of the key experiences that led you to pursue leadership roles and particularly in such diverse industries as well?

Jane Louise Grover (02:00.761)
My career started at a very early age. My insights, I came from a family that ran small businesses. So my father was ahead of the time because he got the customer. And so when he left work at the end of the day, he would switch the phone. The phone would be diverted to a home phone. And so at a very early age, I realised that it was about servicing the customer and understanding the customer, sustainability starts and end with being passionate about what you provide and the service that you provide. But the other interesting insight for me at a very early age was always, always take opportunities. And so I saw my family doing that and I was very fortunate to work.

My first role was with the Sheraton chai and I went through different disciplines from front office through to food and beverage through to housekeeping and it was embracing those opportunities that I realised that there that would help my career long term in not being afraid and saying yes, not always having the experience but being willing to learn and someone wise said to me "you learn, you unlearn and you relearn."  And so with that, I realised that success is in the new skills that you learn and acquire and that continuous improvement that keeps you relevant. So I would say the Sheraton Hotel was the scaffolding of my career.

And then I was very fortunate, Caroline, to transition to Crown Resorts and I was there at the opening of the Crown complex in Southbank and again it was a complex that had no systems, no processes but they wanted people with experience, good values and passionate about change and not scared of really being involved in shaping the culture of the organisation but the diversity of the organisation and the people that work there both stretched me, challenged me and shaped the way, shaped my leadership.

Caroline Kennedy (04:50.41)
Yeah and I love what you said before around how the diversity of saying yes in the different roles even though you didn't have the necessary skill set to go from front office to back office to all of those varied departments but you leaned in and you knew you'd figure it out and you knew you'd learn the skill and I think for me that's about resilience and it's building that muscle of resilience.

Because fear can take hold and if we learn from a young age or you know the beginning of our career that we can actually adapt and we can lean into things that are uncomfortable for us to learn to grow and I think that muscle is critical to success because we're not holding back we're leaning in and we're knowing we're not going to be perfect because nobody is but we are really embracing opportunity and not being fearful of it, seeing it for the positive that it is and the opportunity that it is.

Jane Louise Grover (05:58.345)
Absolutely and it's not being fearful and it's at your words were spot-on it's leaning into it because the mindset of continuous improvement and not being fearful but knowing that you're an environment and certainly Crown was an environment where you felt supported. So I had three different portfolios there. My background was sales and marketing, then I was head of corporate services, which is, you know, from technology to guest services to people and capability. And then my last portfolio at Crown was security and surveillance. So they were all totally different disciplines, but there was a theme.

The theme was around the ability to influence and work with people, the ability to build trust, the ability to ask questions, the ability to engage in authentic ways, but also to realising that you don't have all of the answers, building a team around you that have the experience and perspective are interlinked. That really helped me grow. But there was a culture of support and care. And that really cemented both my skills in transformation because I understood there was a science taught and understood that it was still all about the customer.

And I think if you start from the customer, whether it's an internal or an external and work back, it really makes you focus on what's important because there are a lot of things that can be distractions, but delivering value or service to the customer is what you're measured on as a leader.

Caroline Kennedy (08:11.362)
Yeah, yeah, that is so true. And let's jump to SNCT because you were talking about transformation. I know that in every one of your roles, but particularly with SNCT because it's such a an industry that's very traditional. And what was your vision when you stepped into the role as CEO?

Jane Louise Grover (08:38.455)
My vision was one of how do we make the organisation an organisation where everyone is welcome, but also too, it was about the customer. And so I keep saying, I'm absolutely always focused on the customer because it was, so I'll describe the culture to you. It was an operationally driven business. So it was, we will provide these services. This is what we've done for the last 50 years. And there really isn't a choice. But for me, it was around the sustainability of the organisation. It was about the relevance of the organisation. It was about care about the community. It was a care about the employees. So my vision for the organisation was one that everyone could honour and celebrate life as they choose. And it was about choice and it was about customers and it was actually starting to understand what was important to the customer.

And that was through the power of observation, through looking at the data that we had. It was by talking to customers, but also to it was working closely with the board and understanding what their aspirations were. And the aspiration was to make it a contemporary organisation where traditions could be preserved and new practices could be embraced and enhance the brand essence of honoring and celebrating life. and through focusing on the customer and making sure that there was a really good culture within the organisation, which is a multiple of things that you're doing simultaneously. The organisation went from an organisation that was generating when I commenced of $37 million and when I left, it was around $65 million.

And there was not more people passing away, it was the services that we provided and the emerging value that we created that actually people chose us. They wanted to use our services and we changed our services from we had well-being centres, we introduced cafes, we introduced function rooms.

We participated in different ways with the community because we actually understood that the community had changed and we were also in an experienced economy. So all of the skills that I'd learned at Crown and I'd learned from my parents around the importance of the customer and the importance of delivering value really transformed the organisation in such a positive way. And if I look at my career to date, I feel the word that I would say is pride and the organisation and we started it had meaning and it had purpose and they were two key ingredients to its success.

Caroline Kennedy (12:09.292)
Yeah. And what I love about what you said at the beginning was the observation and then looking at the data because the data tells a story. It always tells you a story. And when you look at it too from a customer centric lens as well as commercial because at the end of the day when you're a CEO of an organisation you want it to be sustainable but ensuring that it adds value. So looking from a customer perspective a commercial perspective and then tying all of that together, that really is the science of transformation. And then problem solving. So looking at how do we remain relevant? What does that look like? What are other industries doing cross industry analysis that we could bring into this traditional space to actually transform the experiences for our customers? And that's exactly what you did. So can you Jane talk us through because our listeners won't know.

Even though I've experienced being out at SMCT and it honestly was a transformational experience, in particular the dining experience, the community experience, bringing people together, even though it's a time of grief, it didn't feel heavy in that sense of grief. It was very celebratory of life and I've got goosebumps as I'm talking about it and remembering it. So for our listeners Jane can you perhaps just talk them through what were your initial thoughts about transformation within the sector and how did you begin that transformation?

Jane Louise Grover (13:51.513)
So when I joined SMCT, I didn't look to the traditional sector, I looked externally and I looked at organisations that were really changing the game, that were in traditional sectors. So when you think about the National Gallery of Victoria, or when you think about the State Library, they're organisations that realised if they stayed traditional and if they weren't relevant, they wouldn't survive and they were introducing cafes, were introducing jazz in the evenings, they were doing book readings, they were really engaging with the customer in new ways and also too they understood that the world had changed and people wanted experiences.

So when I joined SMCT, it was making sure that I understood I was looking externally and not looking internally. And then I sat down with the board and the executives and we did a number of workshops and we started on our strategic plan and sort of said, what are the words that we to describe? How do we see the organisation in the next five years? And so we went through a number of workshops but it wasn't just the board and it just wasn't just the executives. We got the whole organisation involved.

And that was also around trying to move the dial with the culture because as previously mentioned, the culture was traditional and it was very purposed, but it was an old tradition. And so I wanted the team to feel pride in what they do. I wanted them to feel that there was a career path for them. I wanted them to feel like they were really an important part of the community. So there were a number of things that I was doing concurrently. Also concurrently I was engaging and talking to people, role modelling behaviours, observing, listening and trying to paint a picture of the future trying to give everyone a sense of pride about what we did and do and how we can be a really pivotal platform for people when they're potentially at their lowest.

But the other observation Caroline and so people so when they go to cemeteries and Springvale Botanical Cemetery has 1.4 million visitors a year. So just think about that. 1.4 million visitors a year and they're all living. That was the other huge insight for me is that while we honoured and looked after the loss of their loved ones, people kept coming back. And so how did we create an environment where we could generate connections, we could display care, we could improve our sustainability. We were also, when you think about cemeteries, we were in quite a competitive landscape and people don't understand that. There are also funeral directors that offer similar services. So we had to make sure that we were offering services that potentially they didn't. And so we had to have a point of difference.

So there were a number of things that we did. And so the strategy in getting people involved, having a sense of the future, working on the culture of the organisation, and then working with key, the other important part was working with key stakeholders and community groups to understand what loss looked like for them or what celebration looked like for them.

And that helped shape the whole strategy of understanding the customer and delivering value to the customer in a way that they could honour and celebrate life. And it really started to change the landscape, not just from a Victorian point of view, but nationally. There was a talk about honouring and celebrating loss in a way that was contemporary.

And there were no constraints because loss and grief are really personal. But it was in an environment that supported people where they could go and have a cup of coffee or they could go to the deck on a Sunday afternoon and listen to jazz. We did many things to support the community in a way that made us relevant, but in a way that allowed us and people to come together and connect and share some of their grief.

Caroline Kennedy (19:24.943)
Yeah. And that's very visionary in terms of the transformation that occurred. But I think from your lens, you've always been about transformation and remaining relevant. I know from the numerous conversations that we've had, because it's a big compass for me too, in terms of when I've led organisations or when I work with CEOs about challenging the status quo and remaining relevant because nobody wants to be that business or steering the ship in and whether it be a business, an organisation or an industry that is no longer relevant. And of course, in the industry that you were in, there will always be demand. But how do you add greater value than what exists right now? And I think you absolutely accomplished that. And the other thing I want to go back to is also when we talk about being customer centric and I say this to CEOs all the time, growth is on the outside and they say to me, what does that mean? And I say, well, if you want to transform or grow this organisation, look outside, start there.

And a lot of executives and CEOs find that initially when they start to evaluate their focus, it's very internal. And when we're looking at internal, we might be about continuous improvement, but what you'll find is if you're not looking external, you're not bringing in those new perspectives, those new insights, you haven't necessarily got that diverse thinking because you're just, it's very tunnel visioned and status quo. And I think that's really critical for anyone who's listening and they're looking to disrupt their industry or just grow their business growth is on the outside. That's where you start. Look at the data, look at the insights, look at the organisations or industries that are disrupting. Look at how they're disrupting. How can you bring that into your current organisation and how do you remain relevant based on consumer buying patterns change because they do. And I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, Jane. And that is why you are a transformational leader, because you get it and you really understand it from the core. And then you lead the change.

Now we've talked about the successes. I'd love to talk about because while there are plenty of successes, there are always challenges along the way. So tell me a little bit about the challenges that you faced in transforming such a traditional industry.

Jane Louise Grover (22:23.833)
So transformation and change is very hard and there is a science taught. And you really summarised it was around challenging the dominant logic within the organisation. And so people say they want change.

But really do they? And do they understand that to have change, you need diversity. So new learning in any organisation are the most important. And new knowledge resides with new communities. So you really have to be curious and you have to be courageous. And so the SMCT to me, it was, as I've highlighted a gift, a highlight in my career, but there were also some incredible challenges. And so many stakeholders and many people, we know the fear of change. And what I learned through that time is the importance of communication. And you touched on before, Caroline, around so many CEOs look internally or look at the sector, they don't look external. And so one of the biggest challenges for me was also taking the funeral directors on that journey. It was also too, it was a double edged sword and this is what makes it quite tricky. They were both customers and competitors. And so you're walking a tight rope at times around

You want their support and you want them to use some of your services, but you also know that they're looking at you taking some of their share of the wallet. So one of the biggest challenges that I had as a CEO was getting the comms right, getting the messaging right, refining the messaging, but also to an early days, not anticipating the way that some of them would respond.

And so as a CEO and as an executive, I always am one for continuous improvement. And I look back and I thought to myself during that process, but you know, this benefits them, it makes their product more relevant. But what I didn't understand was that the messaging wasn't clear. It wasn't showing there was added value for them and their customer. And so one of the biggest, you know, I've talked about the customer, but what I learned was really being sharp about the communications and understanding that your communications when you're dealing with the, whether it's companies or community, it needs to be really clear. And you need to make sure that when you're doing such change that the key stakeholders are met in person. That you are showing empathy, you're showing authenticity, that your language is one that they can understand and you really do need to take them on the journey. Because what I underestimated with some of the stakeholders is that they were traditionalist too and they had a fear of change. So one of my biggest insight during that period was being really clear about your communication, really clear about your messaging, really clear about the value that you're going to provide them and their customer. And then being courageous and moving forward because so often people want change and they're fearful. But I always think about Rosa Parks on the bus in Alabama and that change and about meaning and purpose and saying if things are going to change for the better, if I'm going to make an impact then I've got to stay the course. So for any change piece that communications piece and what's in it for me and clearly distilling that was one of my key learnings during that time.

Caroline Kennedy (27:06.592)
Yeah. And what I loved about that is also to thinking about human behavior. And I talk about this a lot because when we talk about fear, we're hardwired for comfort and our actual the neuroscience of our brain is we're hardwired for comfort. And a lot of the time, individuals unconsciously realise or don't realise that they are responding with fear because of that hard wiring. And so it's operating very consciously first and foremost to be really clear on why is this occurring? What is the behavior going on here? What does that mean for that individual, which is the empathy piece that you talked about before? And then being able to be influential because you get a sense of what might be going on for them.

And interestingly is that the majority of people operate very unconsciously and are not thinking about their patterns or their behavioral patterns and how they might not be serving them. And I know, you know, even for me in my earlier career, I was certainly very unconscious of my behavioral patterns. But I think, and you and I have talked about this, when we start to really overlay behavioral patterns and why people do what they do, it really can be transformational in how you show up for them with that multi-dimensional approach, right? Because we start to show up differently for different people based on their needs. And you do that very well, Jane. It is, I think, one of your... It's just a hone skill that I know has taken many decades to hone, but you do that extremely well.

And I think for you, could you talk to our listeners about what empathy means for you when as a leader? Because I think we can use the word empathy and authenticity, but a lot of people, the definition is very different for them on their perspective on it. And I think it would be great to hear your perspective on it.

Jane Louise Grover (29:24.107)
Empathy, so I would say empathy for me is built on being vulnerable. And if you're being vulnerable, you can display care and compassion and understanding. And from that empathy and from that vulnerability, you also then start to build trust and trust to me is the currency of leadership. You cannot transform an organisation unless you take the people on the journey. And that empathy, and I was in a sector that is about care and about being empathetic. And as a leader, if you don't demonstrate those behaviors and don't genuinely demonstrate those behaviors, then you don't take people on the journey.

So, it was about being vulnerable. It was about being authentic. It was about demonstrating care. It was about demonstrating trust. But more importantly, when you're leading change and you talked about fear, Caroline, people actually watch your behaviours, all of your behaviours, and they need to be congruent with your words. And as a leader and as an executive, you realise that unless you can take the people on the journey with you, unless you build empathy, unless you build trust, then they're not gonna come on that journey with you. But as importantly too, you really need to be passionate about what you do and why you're doing it. And for me as a leader now, it's really about making sure that I grow talent; that I role model talent, that I look at how do you develop them? And for me, I have a bit of a metaphor for life. Life is sport. What are the things that you learn in sport? And you learn to win, you learn to lose, you learn teamwork, you learn to care, you learn about the dynamics of working with people and the highs and the lows and so and the human condition, what it is to be human. So for me, vulnerability is really being building trust, being open, showing too that as a leader, you have some of the same fears that they have, but together, collectively, we can move forward together. And I think that that is really important to any leader.

But for me, it's the satisfaction of why I lead. It's to build teams and build high-performing teams.

Caroline Kennedy (32:36.234)
Yeah. Yeah. And I'd like to circle back to that the high performing teams because I think that is something that you absolutely create in organisations is that high performance. And I've seen and witnessed how your executive team are all high performance. So if we were to distill how you create high performing teams into three elements what would it be or three of the top strategies that you look to for doing that.

Jane Louise Grover (33:12.153)
I would, high performing teams, I would make sure that my team are diverse. So they come from diverse backgrounds and they have diverse skills. And to me, experience in different industries is absolutely critical. Getting back to your point about looking outwardly, not looking inwardly. Leadership skills are so transferable. And I would say to anyone listening to the podcast that really wants to transform or innovate, look externally. I think the other being curious and good questions do the heavy lifting. So get a group of people that aren't scared and who ask questions that are curious to understand what are the different ways of doing things.

Why do we think like that? And I think the other insight that I would have that people want consistency in their leadership. And so you know that you can go into a meeting, you can ask questions, that there is consistency in psychological safety in those environments. So you can innovate, you can question.

And if you do that, and I think my earlier comment was around new learnings come from diverse points of view, then you've got every opportunity to make sure your organisation is relevant, sustainable and can grow and flourish.

Caroline Kennedy (34:58.03)
Yeah. See how you've just distilled and I completely agree with them, particularly the curiosity as a skill is so underrated. But what you've just described are behaviors, right? And so our psychology, how we show up and the skills that we use are 80 % of success. curiosity, absolutely.

I know I did some work a while ago with an organisation and they didn't have psychological safety at the executive level. Now they weren't conscious of it, but people would go into meetings and there would be individuals that were quite dominant and those voices were the only voices that were ever heard and everybody else sat back and they decided, I don't feel safe, I can't speak up. So they didn't.

And it is so limiting for organisations when there isn't psychological safety and there isn't curiosity. And that stems from the culture and the leadership. And I think what you've just said hits the nail on the head because when the leader is asking questions and it seems like such a simple concept, but it's not and it's not easy to do, is that creates that psychological safety, it creates the curiosity. And we do so with the willingness to want to hear other people's perspective and to hear their lens so that we can bring it all together. But if people hold back, you're limiting the organisation and when we create cultures, unintentionally, by the way, nobody ever creates it unintentionally create cultures whereby people are holding back. You'll just get the status quo and you'll feel like you're pushing a boulder up a hill to get anywhere. And so thank you, Jane, for sharing that because I think you've hit the nail on the head with creating high performing teams requires those three elements. Now, as we wrap up, I'm curious as to what legacy you want to leave behind and the impact you want to have.

Jane Louise Grover (37:22.037)
As a leader, meaning and purpose are really important to me and who I am. So the legacy that I want to leave is making sure that organisations understand the importance of the customer, but also to making sure that as a leader, you grow talent.

You nurture talent. You give them opportunities for continuous learning and improvement. And if I look at my career, I have had great mentors, Caroline, that have invested in me, taken a chance on me, nurtured me, backed me. So as a leader, my legacy, I would like to leave to people joining the organisation or any organisation that I grow and nurture talent. And that generosity is paid forward by the next person. And continuous improvement and continuous learning, it's absolutely critical for the community, for the individual to flourish. So it would be around growing talent in any organisation and paying forward. It's about the people and I'm very passionate about the people and one of my highlights at SMCT is when I left, our employee engagement score was 90. was 90, best in class. When I joined, it was in the low 60s and that was all about the people and investing in the people and taking them on the journey.

So, it has to, for me it's all around the organisation and the people in that organisation are your intangible competitive advantage and never forget that.

Caroline Kennedy (39:32.46)
Yeah, yeah. And I just want to make a note on that. So you had these high engagement scores, you grew them significantly, but you also grew the revenue. So I want to highlight to everybody the connection between the two because the people make a business. And so it's not just about the engagement scores, they actually feed into the outcomes that you're delivering. And when people feel valued, when they feel passionate, thrive and I think your style of leadership is about setting people up for success and also to leaving them better than you found them and that's more about others than it is about you and I think transformational leadership is about putting the people at the heart of everything that you do and we can sometimes neglect that.

And in society we neglect that too. You see that time and time again. But you are a testament to the tangible value that that approach brings for people but also for businesses as well. So it has a compound effect. And so thank you for sharing today. And I've got one final question for you. We've worked together. What was that like, Jane?

Jane Louise Grover (40:59.161)
For me it was, I would say so the thing is transformative. It was a transformational experience in a sense that when you're coach, I had to ask myself, you know, how coachable am I? And you actually Caroline would ask me a lot of questions and made me see things from different perspectives which really enhanced my leadership, but also to enhance my self-awareness. And that was a really big shift for me. And like high performing athletes, high performing executives need to be coachable and they need to be open to feedback and they need to embrace that feedback.

So, the organisation can perform, they can be a better performer themselves, and also role model the importance of continuous learning. I would recommend to any executive that coaching is absolutely critical to achieve high performing teams.

Caroline Kennedy (42:21.976)
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you for your time today. I have loved chatting with you and sharing your insights with our listeners and viewers. are a transformational leader who is a role model to many and we need more leaders like you, Jane. And I'm so grateful, A, that we got to work together and that I got to also learn from you because I did and

You're such an inspiration and thank you for that.

Jane Louise Grover (42:55.865)
It's been my pleasure and thank you for the gift that you gave me Caroline.