Ep 9. Pawl Cubbin: The Genius Move of Buying Back Your Company

The Honest CEO Show, Episode 9: Pawl Cubbin- The Genius Move of Buying Back Your Company

Caroline Kennedy (00:20)
Welcome, and my guest today is Pawl Cubbin founder and CEO of Zoo Group. Pawl started his career in 1985 as an art director. Ten years later, he began building what became a highly successful branding and advertising business in Canberra, growing it to more than 50 people over a 12-year period. In 2000, Pawl inadvertently entered the hospitality industry by acquiring part of a small commercial building with the leading restaurateur.

Six months later, after losing a tenant, he decided to create his first hospitality venue. This was the beginning of Cubbin Co., a business management company that Pawl set up to run his expanding group of restaurants, pubs, clubs and commercial properties. Cubbin Co. now also oversees the financial and administrative aspects of Zoo, and other creative businesses Pawl has investments in. In 2003, Pawl helped establish Australia's largest regional airline, Regional Express, REX, as one of the founding shareholders and board member. He was responsible for the launch branding, marketing and media strategy for the airline until he sold his share at IPO in 2006. In 2007, his business partner, sold his share in their advertising business to the STW Group. Three years later, Pawl bought the share back with a dream to create a truly independent agency network, the Zoo Group. Zoo Melbourne opened in 2012, followed by Sydney mid-2013, then Auckland in 2014.

Pawl established a board of key partners and external advisors to help strengthen the business and expand the group. The Zoo Group Singapore office opened late 2015 and Pawl's goal is to have 10 agencies in seven countries by the end of the decade. So congratulations Pawl on your achievements in business to date and welcome to the show.

Pawl Cubbin (02:38)
Thank you very much.

Caroline Kennedy (02:40)
Firstly, tell us about the Zoo Group and how it all began.

Pawl Cubbin (02:27)
It began due to, I guess, we expanded pretty rapidly in the Canberra and that we were doing a lot of stuff that we hadn't really set out to do. think sometimes when you expand quickly and you hire people, you can actually kind of wake up sort of 12 months later and question how you kind of morphed into something that you hadn't anticipated. And I guess that point was a really turning, a big turning point for me. I thought to myself, I want to kind of get back to sort of what we do well, which is really kind of ideation and strategy, not as much production work as we'd sort of become known for.

So that was an opportunity for me to revamp the business and really kind of change how it worked and moving premises is often a really good way to do that. So we had a space that we had just built elsewhere to rent out. I decided to move the business to that space as much for psychological reasons as anything else. So guess that was kind of the birth of our group.

As it is today. So it's always an opportunity, I think, when you make a dramatic change to what you're doing and how you're doing it and ultimately where you do it. So then kind of really look at everything that you do and kind of question, know, do we need to do it this way or should we be doing it a different way or a better way? You know, so it's a really kind of a time of re-evaluation of everything. And I think when you do that, you can then sort of progress from there in a different, more energetic way.

Caroline Kennedy (03:58)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of that process is the ongoing evaluation of where you are now and where you want to be in the future and how you're going to get there, isn't it? Which every business goes through or should go through on a regular basis. Yeah, for sure. 2007, you sold your business to the big guys and then you soon realised that that decision wasn't the best for you and your growing agency. So you bought the agency back. Tell us about that.

Pawl Cubbin (04:27)
Yeah, so my business partner wanted to sell a share, which ultimately he did. I didn't sell my share, so I retained my share, but I pretty much sort of woke up one day with a new business partner who was a multinational group that ended up in and half of my business. Look, that was okay for a year or so, but really wasn't the right fit for me.

I had some pretty firm views about how I wanted to do things. As many people find out, doing things the multinational way is not always for them. I learned a lot. It was a period of significant learning and a glimpse into how multinational agencies work and how they structure themselves and so forth, which was really valuable for me given that we're now becoming a multinational group ourselves.

Yeah, the vibe wasn't great. And it became pretty clear that we were becoming less successful because we were kind of at odds with ourselves, I think. So yeah, that was the catalyst for change, in terms of what was talking about before.

Caroline Kennedy (05:30)
Yeah. And I understand that initially when you bought back the business, your business took an immense hit. The buyback obviously cost you a lot of money. What happened in terms of clients and staff? Tell us about that.

Pawl Cubbin (05:46)
Yeah, look, the buyback didn't cost a lot because the business had declined over the period since those guys bought in. As I said, culturally, it wasn't great. We had some people kind of running the business that weren't aligned. And, you know, you sort of become something else and you lose your way and the business suffers and the clients suffer. You know, the work suffers and so forth.

I think when we made a decision to revamp it, we really kind of needed to regrow the business, particularly given that we had a more defined focus. I think a lot of businesses get stale, and I don't think they know they get stale. I think with us, probably three to five years, we look at ourselves like we haven't seen ourselves before. And I think that's a really important part of success because you look at yourself outward from outside looking in.

As I say, and we've always done that. And it's amazing how if you take that risk and you reinvest in the business and you reinvigorate the way you do things, it's pretty scary, but it really does pay dividends. I've done it about five or six times in my career for different businesses. it's amazing how pretty much every time you get a rapid uplift the following 12 months really after you've compared to the previous 12 months before then it happened.

Caroline Kennedy (07:03)
Yeah, and I think also the key to that is the ongoing evolution of how consumers buy and how that affects businesses and remaining relevant. And it doesn't matter if you're selling business to business or business to consumer, when consumers buying patterns change, you've got to look at how relevant your business is and remaining relevant. And a lot of businesses don't realise the change or the change in market conditions until their business actually declines.

And then it takes such a long time to build that momentum back. But once you do and you review, you know, how your ongoing relevance to market and what it means from a strategic point of view and what you need to implement to make sure you remain relevant, then you see that upturn, which is what you've just described. But it can take a while, can't it, to see the results from that.

Pawl Cubbin (07:54)
Look, I think the results, if it's dramatic and you draw a line in the sand and you start your review, what you're doing and how you're doing it and who your customers are and who else they're buying from and stuff and you get it right, which takes time. It's sort of probably a six month period of review prior to you actually making that change. Once that's done and if it's done, then the improvement can be quite quick.

You're right. mean, you know, it takes a long time to lose, every day by day before you kind of end up in a place where you haven't been before. So that's really the thing. You need to give yourself a wake-up call. Just get on. And one of the biggest things for me is Canva is quite an insular place. it's got great talent here, but a of the talent in my industry don't really know what the industry is like in a multinational sense.

And so when I kind of got out of Canberra and we opened our first office in Melbourne and I started to interact with other professionals that had been with multinationals for a long time, really changed my view about what could be achieved in the Canberra market and how far away what we offered in Canberra was in an advertising marketing sense from what other cities and other countries offered. So I think you've got to, if you're going to revamp your business, you've got to really kind of benchmark yourself against not just other businesses in your region, but somehow look at sort of best practice sort of nationally or internationally. And I think that's where a lot of the ideas come from because yeah, there's so much more to experience and that's a great place to start if you're gonna do that.

Caroline Kennedy (09:38)
Yep. Now the company continues to grow, which is fantastic. And you really focus on attracting talented staff and new clients. Now I believe you're known for fostering the entrepreneurial spirit within your team. So can you tell us your top three tips for getting the best out of your team?

Pawl Cubbin (09:57)
All right, so it starts definitely with the best people. And as I said, if you met the best people in other businesses, you know what they look like. So that's really helpful to then be able to identify who the best people are and how they work, right? The second thing is we attract people. Our purpose statement is to continually challenge ourselves to find the new better.

And so what I tend to do is make it quite difficult for prospective people in the initial interview with me by saying, look, you know, I challenge myself significantly all the time. If you're up for a challenge, you and I are to work really well together. If you're kind of not, then, you know, now's the time to, you know, to not continue the process with me. So I think letting people know upfront that you know, I can't help but challenge myself with pretty much everything in every way or time.

And I push people around me pretty hard. And I think that's probably the first thing is people have to be up for a challenge to challenge themselves to learn and develop more themselves. Right. So that's, you know, skills and all that kind of stuff and, and expertise is really a separate thing. If they don't, if they're not at a point in their life where they want to challenge themselves, and grow on a personal level to learn more and see what they're capable of, then it's not going to really work. So I suppose that's the first thing. The second thing is, I guess, know, leading by example, it's one thing to say that it's another thing to inspire people by actually, you know, being that way yourself. So I tend to look at things quite differently all the time.

I think that encourages people to do the same. I think that's sort of the basis of being entrepreneurial is either finding a new way to do something or finding something new. So that's my definition of being entrepreneurial is doing something new that hasn't been done before or doing something in a different way that has been done before.

It's a leadership thing. You keep people around you and you inspire them because you naturally think that way and operate that way yourself. So, look, sometimes it can go too far. I think you've got to have different layers of people. Some people, they want to be challenged, but not really out of the box. And other people, you're seeing your people, they've really just got to think completely naturally about solving problems.

And I guess that's the key, know, every problem is an opportunity as the saying goes. And if you can kind of train people to think that way, that a problem is really an opportunity for growth. And it's just how you deal with that.

Caroline Kennedy (12:33)
And I completely agree with that and that is so true because a problem is an opportunity and if you see it that way then it brings opportunity too.

Pawl Cubbin (12:41)
Yeah, it's amazing how often a problem well solved can end up with a much better result than had you not had that problem first place. Pretty cool.

Caroline Kennedy (12:50)
Hmm. Yep. And I think too, you know, what you've just described is attitude is everything. when it comes to your team, you know, people that are motivated and people that actually feel empowered, and want to challenge themselves and grow. And it's about having the right attitude and the right cultural fit first and foremost, isn't it? Rather than skill and experience.

Pawl Cubbin (13:09)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, one of the things that we're implementing now in our sort of next metamorphosis from in a business sense is allowing people to work where they want, when they want. So we're moving from a time management system to a project management system whereby we break the job up really carefully upfront, a very detailed way, bring the team together or each of the teams together so that they understand what they personally have to deliver at each touch point.

And then really kind of let them go to wherever they want to get their work done and be really flexible about working hours and be really flexible about whether, know, how much time they spend in the office, as long as they're delivering their bit and they're coming back together to work with others. We actually think that's going to achieve a much better result in our industry than, you know, getting people to come to work at the same time every day and sort of work desks.

So it's a pretty radical move, but again, we're in a creative industry. Most creative people in any industry do their best work, you know, where and when they're in the zone. And I think it's going to make a pretty big difference to our business.

Caroline Kennedy (14:16)
Yeah and I agree with you and I think it's that philosophy of trading time for money as opposed to trading for outcome. Do you know what I mean? Being outcome driven as opposed to just trading time for money as they say. So being a lot more flexible.

Pawl Cubbin (14:30)
It's really what you do with your time, isn't it? It's not about doing things quicker. There's a really good saying that's in our client service induction manual, and it's an Abraham Lincoln quote. It says, give me six hours to chop down a tree and I'll spend the first four hours sharpening the axe.

Caroline Kennedy (14:47)
I love it. So true. Yeah. Now, I believe it's important to have authentic conversations around the challenges, insights and learnings that come from business journeys. Cause there are many of them. and I believe that when opportunities present it's when an opportunity presents itself, say yes, jump on it and figure the rest out later. And, as you progress now, you were pivotal in setting up the Rex Airlines after the collapse of Ansett as you saw an opportunity there for a regional airline and you jumped on it. Tell us about that. Tell us about, you your experience around just saying yes and moving forward.

Pawl Cubbin (15:25)
I mean, look, we're a brand agency, right? So we're sort of creative people that look at brands and kind of go, well, you know, how do we help that business progress given that its brand is what it is right now and how can changing the brand and the culture of the business make it a better business? I suppose with the Rex thing, Ansett had disappeared two weeks beforehand and you had a couple of regional airlines, Hazelden and Kendall, which were still functioning as regional airlines even though the ANCET were no more. And what I found is that the spirit of the people who were still involved with that airline was pretty significant. And that spirit came from the founders of those two regional airlines, which were long gone.

The spirit of the people was really, really strong, even though the main airline was no more. So I felt that was a really big opportunity to be able to kind of build something from that point. I think a lot of the time it's not about the equipment or the hangers or the infrastructure or how much you're paying for the business. It's actually kind of about what's the most valuable thing about this business? And in that instance, it was the people.

So I guess that's where the opportunity was. It was like, you know, we could rebrand this and kind of rebrand it with the spirit of the founders and the way that people were behaving at that point time. And that was kind of the thing that I guess activated me and another couple of guys that had also had a similar view about the history of the airline. And we kind of came together and it worked. We did the deal in about a month.

Which was, right, know, sometimes I'm a big believer that, you know, if you listen to the universe, you'll, you'll pretty much stay on track. And as much as you might want something, if it's not right, and you push it too hard, you can make it happen, but you probably shouldn't. And so I think with the Rex thing, it was quite, it was meant to be because it was actually, you know, it was hard work, you know, night and day for a month to get the deal up, but it actually kind of happened without too many major barriers. And so that said to me that it was something worthy of doing and it worked out pretty well.

Caroline Kennedy (17:29)
Yep. Now I see fear, particularly fear around making mistakes, holding a lot of people back. I also believe from mistakes and failings comes huge learning and growth. Can you tell us your view on this?

Pawl Cubbin (17:43)
I mean, no, if you hate failing, and most of us hate failing, it's amazing how much you learn through failure not to do that or other things like that again. And I guess that's sort of what makes you better. You know, I'm 55, I've been in business for, you know, 35 years or something like that. And, you know, you make a lot of mistakes. But what I find really interesting is everything's in cycles.

So when you come back to that cycle again, as we're sort of doing right now with the expansion of our group, it feels like we're sort of in startup mode again, but obviously at a higher level. sort of, everything becomes familiar and you then kind of, you can then apply some of the lessons that you'd learned way back to some of the new situations that you're in. And if you hadn't had those failings and those issues in the early days, when you get bigger, you can be in real sorts, know, lots of trouble.

So those failures at an early stage where you've got less to lose, I think are terrific because, when you get bigger and inevitably you will, if you're good at what you do and you want to expand, having those failures at an early age and having as many as you can that don't take you out really set you up for minimising your failures when you're at a much bigger scale.

Caroline Kennedy (18:57)
Yeah, I know. I completely agree with that. And I think the other thing is that when you start to recognise the fear of failure and you embrace it or you go through and you realise that you've come out the other end, it doesn't have the same impact because you get used to it as well, don't you?

Pawl Cubbin (19:15)
Yeah, I think one of the big points for me is I got involved in a pretty big nightclub with a bunch of other guys, just sort of as an investor and as a creative guy, a long time ago. And the nightclub opened and it was significant in Canberra. was three times bigger than anything people had seen before. And it went really, really well for about a year. And then after that, as things go, the owners get cocky or you take your eye off the ball or whatever, you don't make adjustments to what people are wanting.

And the nightclub inevitably went downhill within sort of the following six months. And I don't know anything about nightclubs, you know, as I say, I'm a creative guy, I'm a business guy. I didn't particularly know about music and sort of young people, you know, what they want and all that kind of stuff. And my partners decided that they would get out of the nightclub.

So that was a pretty scary time for me. And I ended up finding a couple of guys, I don't know whether it was luck or whether it was good judgment about people, but I found a couple of guys and I brought them in and those guys really turned it around. And so I guess the thing for me is I kind of learned that it's not actually about me, it's about me finding the right people in any industry.

So you can be part of something if you apply your business smarts to any problem by first of all identifying people that know a lot more about that business than you do and getting them to work with you to regrow it. Fixing something that's not something you have experience with but because you're applying good business thinking to finding solutions to fix that really give you a lot of confidence. You know what I mean?

If it was an advertising or marketing problem or business, I could fix that. But in a business where you've got absolutely no idea and you can fix that too, that gives you a lot of confidence. And as you said, you and I were talking earlier, every business fundamentally is pretty much the same thing. It's about what does the customer want? Who are the right people to deliver what the customer wants? And the bottom line is often the same; scarily similar business to business irrespective of what it is. So I think being able to fix something that's outside your skill set by applying business principles to that and fixing it gives you great confidence.

Caroline Kennedy (21:29)
Yeah. And I always believe as well as, you know, surrounding yourself with it, which is what you've just described, surrounding yourself with the people, the right people. And sometimes it's about if you want to achieve something, regardless of what it is, if someone's, you know, walked that path before you go and talk to them, you know, rather than scrambling, trying to find whatever direction that is, go and talk to them and, and ask them how they got there and what did they do to get there and use that as a learning as well.

Pawl Cubbin (21:58)
Yeah, that's exactly right. I was at a seminar the other day and it's not the guy said, it's not what is the answer to the problem. It is who can tell me what the answer is. So other than trying to work it out yourself, work out who knows more about this than you do and go and ask them or go and find them to help you sort that. And it's the who, not the what really, you know.

Caroline Kennedy (22:20)
Yep, that is very true, especially in business and I see a lot of business owners, particularly small business owners, not recognising that or feeling...

Pawl Cubbin (22:30)
Yeah, that they need to have all the answers, but it's impossible. And I guess that's the big thing, isn't it really? It's like, acknowledge that you don't have all the answers. That's the first step, isn't it? And once you go, okay, well, I don't, then, then go looking for who does. And I think that's a really big, I think when I was starting out, you know, I felt the same way. thought I have to know all this stuff, you know, and you have to go, I have to go find out, you know, and it's like, well, do you?

Caroline Kennedy (22:33)
Exactly, I know!

Pawl Cubbin (22:56)
Or do you just go find some people to talk to or bring some people in that actually know a component of your business much better than you do or maybe you'll ever know? And that's a big thing, I think, for people in small business or people that are starting out is recognising that.

Caroline Kennedy (23:11)
And I think that that comes back to working smarter rather than harder, you know, and, and realising that you can't know it all. And how do you leverage the people around you that have been there and done that? Or even if they're not around you, go and seek them out. Cause most people are willing to generally help. Well, that's what I found anyway. And certainly if anyone ever comes and asks me a question, I'm always willing to help people. You know, it's good.

I like to see people succeed and to be part of that process and to give back to people too.

Pawl Cubbin (23:43)
Well, we've just opened in Singapore six months ago and there's so many micro businesses in Singapore that are very niche and run by very capable people. And we've spent a lot of time meeting a lot of these people because our model is that we want to work with these people because our industry is so diverse in terms of what you need to know and so diverse in terms of the rapid pace of change.

We went and saw three or four social media companies that all do social media, but they all do it in a slightly different way and it's all quite valuable. So I think working with specialist companies as opposed to treating them like suppliers is a great way to grow your own business without having to put on three times the amount of people that you actually need. And it also means that other smaller businesses can benefit from the work that you're giving them.

And philosophically, that's a big part of the new Zoo in terms of where we're going, not just in Singapore, but in each of the markets. There's just a lot of capable people to work with. And I think provided that there's respect and there's openness about that relationship, as opposed to treating them like a supplier, I think that's the way of the future.

Caroline Kennedy (24:58)
Yeah, it's a partnership, isn't it? That's what you've just described. And partnerships are a way of the future.

Pawl Cubbin (25:04)
That word gets used a lot and I don't see it being practiced, but partnership is something that's quite equal, you know? And I think a lot of people use that word, but really what it's actually about is it's about treating somebody like a supplier and that's not a partnership, know what mean?

Caroline Kennedy (25:20)
No, and I think the first step in my view to a partnership is how do you add value to them in the first instance without actually expecting anything in return? know, like don't go in thinking I want this outcome from them, but what can you actually give them?

Pawl Cubbin (25:39)
So initially what we spent a lot of time doing is just meeting people, calling them up and obviously doing our research and finding out who's the best breed in a certain area in certain city. And then just going and having coffee with them and just getting to know them. And I think that even just getting to know people and just sharing honestly, person to person, how you feel about the economy and the industry and just getting to know them as people is a really good first step.

And then I think if you can work with each other as people, then that's the basis of any business relationship. You can then go, okay, well, let's find a way to work together because I really like you. And that works the other way too. So I like doing that stuff. And I learned a lot too about different niches of our industry that I really don't know a lot about. That's great.

Caroline Kennedy (26:24)
And varied views as well, know, you expose to so much through that. Yeah, for sure. Now, what advice would you give to anyone struggling in business?

Pawl Cubbin (26:35)
Have a real hard look at why they're struggling. Is it them? Because I think most of us would agree that any business's success or failure comes from the person that's running it. And so when I've failed before, when my businesses have failed before, when I've had different people running them, they may not have been the right people to run them, but it's my fault for not having identified that. So it actually kind of comes back to me. And then I kind of go, well, why didn't I see this?

Did I not know? Did I not have the experience? Was I distracted by something else in which case if I'm running a business I can't be? I need to fix that. So it's kind of coming back to why there's a problem here. And usually it's like looking at yourself, right? Why have I missed this? Why haven't I grown quick enough? So I'd always kind of start with that. know, personal development stuff is really the core of, I think, any future solution to a business problem.

Caroline Kennedy (27:28)
And I think the other thing to add there is I see a lot of the particularly small business owners not being self-aware. And I think that that's what you've just described. It's so important to be self-aware. It really is. And to acknowledge it because...

Pawl Cubbin (27:44)
It's hard though. It's you spend your whole life being as self-aware as you can be. As I said before, I'm 55 and I reckon, I reckon the last year and a half has been huge learning for me in terms of what I'm good at, what I'm not good at. So I think you're absolutely right. Find that as, as early as you can in business, have a real reality check about, you know, who you are and what you're good at, what you're not good at, and then bring people in around you who are better at those things. Don't try and be the best at everything, you know.

Caroline Kennedy (28:12)
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And I couldn't agree more. And I also, I've always believed in business and when I've led businesses that the fish rots from the head down and if I'm, you know, at the head, then that's, I have to be responsible for everything that goes on in that business, you know, and, be accountable for it. and, and sometimes that means that perhaps, you know, I didn't see something and it went wrong and I have to say, how do I improve that for the future? Yeah. And acknowledge it.

Pawl Cubbin (28:42)
An example, right? You come into a business that's not doing well, so that business has employed you to come in and make some changes and stuff. I think the first question you've got to ask the business owners is how much autonomy do I have to make the changes that I think are necessary here? Because if you're brought into something and there are issues and your job is to fix those issues, you need to have a fair bit of control. They've got to have trust in you and you've got to be able to make the changes, they've got to allow you to make the changes that you need to make to make that business better, right.

And so if they're not prepared to do that, if you're being interviewed and you ask that question and you're feeling doubt that they're going to give you enough rope to be able to do that, then you shouldn't do it because it's going to be a waste of your time and their time and everybody's money. So I think that's a really important thing too. You know, it's not just about looking at yourself. It's also about looking at the business that you might be have been brought in to run or fix and kind of making sure that you've got the latitude to be able to do that.

Caroline Kennedy (29:41)
Yeah. Otherwise, you can't influence change. Yeah. And nothing will change.

Pawl Cubbin (29:47)
That's right, because obviously there's a fundamental problem. And if you get to bottom of that, you've got to be able to fix that. And some business owners don't want you to. They don't want to believe that that's the issue. It's the issue somewhere else. I guess identifying that pretty quickly prior to making a decision to join somebody or not is going to save everybody a lot of pain.

Caroline Kennedy (30:05)
Yeah. And I think that's an extremely valid point and something that I learnt the hard way in regards to that exactly what you've just described. it is so important to make sure that, you that you have the ability to be able to influence the change and the autonomy and also that there is that trust and support. Otherwise, you just won't see the improvement.

Pawl Cubbin (30:29)
As you said before, being self-aware is really key. The more self-aware you are, the more you can understand and identify how any partnership is going to be with anyone, hiring the right staff, joining the right company. So it sort of starts with you. If you know you, then you can ask really good questions in these ways of other people. And that goes with getting new clients as well.

You can get, anybody can get new clients, right? But finding the right clients based on you knowing yourself and you being honest with those clients about how you want to work with them. That's so important. It just saves so much time, doesn't it?

Caroline Kennedy (31:03)
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's so much integrity behind that too. I've always, you know, led businesses or worked with clients based on the shared, not just values, but can we deliver your outcome? Is there a right expectation? And if there's not, being honest about it, don't just work with anyone for the sake of it. Actually, you know, excuse me, but try and add...

From my perspective, I always really wanted to get those results and those outcomes so that I felt like I contributed and added value. Otherwise, what's the point?

Pawl Cubbin (31:35)
Yep. Yep.

Caroline Kennedy (31:36)
And finally, what does the future look like for you and your business, Pawl? As you're expanding quickly.

Pawl Cubbin (31:42)
Yeah, so we've worked pretty hard on getting a really interesting but simple model in place so that we can grow our businesses organically once we set them up and focus on expanding into other places using the same model. So that's taken us the best part of five years, I guess, to kind of refine that model and really get it right. And the future for us is, yeah, as I say, grow organically in each of the markets that we're in.

We're looking to be in New York by the end of next year. And we've got a client that we think can help us get there in one of the other markets we're in. So yeah, we're looking to be in places around the world, not a big size, 30 to 50 people in each agency, but where there's really interesting things happening in different places around the world, we want to be there in the next five years.

I'm pretty focused on expanding our group into these different markets with great people. And one of the great joys of my life is actually traveling to different places and meeting new people and seeing if we can work together. So it's a pretty good job for me. I really like it.

Caroline Kennedy (32:50)
Until you're definitely passionate about it.

Pawl Cubbin (32:52)
You've got to, I think when you start out as something, whatever you start out as, you've kind of got to work out what the basis of your love of what you're doing is. It's not always what you're doing, it's something within what you're doing. And so I started off as a graphic designer and I think I was an okay graphic designer. So I get creative and I get creative people.

But I think one of the things that I've realised in that is I really love business. I would ask a lot of questions as a graphic designer, more about business to really understand what the solution should be. But then in recent years, I've found out that I just really like talking to interesting people and kind of pulling different types of people together to see if we can make a business, which is kind of where we got the name Zoophrong collective of quite different people. Yeah, so yeah, that's what the future holds for me. you know, find out what you love doing and try to do more of that and you'll be pretty happy, you know.

Caroline Kennedy (33:47)
Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. And you'll most likely do it well as well. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Pawl. We really appreciate it and good luck with the future.

Pawl Cubbin (34:01)
Yeah. Thanks, thanks for the chat. It's been really good.